I feel like I've ruined my campaign

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

Hello reader!

Part of what makes playing on Hard and Unfair so compelling and fascinating is that the game isn't at all shy about presenting you with gruesomely powerful enemies with prohibitively high AC. Players will need perfect builds, and a rounded party capable of providing a plethora of buffs and debuffs. When you overcome these challenges it feels like a great accomplishment, and I don't think I will ever forget the hardships and celebrations of my Last Azlanti Core run with Grimgor the two-handed fighter.

I am currently in Act 5 of a Hard campaign. I decided "hey, Hard is hard! I need to take this seriously. I'll make a mean as heck build and try my best to clear the campaign". So I went Angel-Oracle. I regret this decision, as it has all but completely invalidated every encounter in the game. An enemy can have over 9000 AC and it just does not matter, metamagic rodded Blade of Justice (devouring lust then quickened after) is enough to take 50% health or so off of an enemy. Baphomet, Playful Darkness, both Black Dragons~ Even if the rest of my party is hopelessly hitting on 20s, Angelbeam just goes brrr and deletes every counter.

I feel conflicted about this. Victory is inevitable, but I would have had to work so much harder if I'd been playing just about any other class or build. Angel is just so overwhelmingly powerful that even on Hard, every enemy in the game is reduced to "just nuke 'em from orbit with the holy space laser". I know I shouldn't feel guilty for using a powerful build to defeat the ungodly abominations that the bosses are on this difficulty setting, since that's the entire point of the game, but I also simultaneously feel like I've robbed myself of a good experience by doing so.

[forkofspite]

Originally posted by Super Cosmic Space Magnet:

Even if the rest of my party is hopelessly hitting on 20s, Angelbeam just goes brrr and deletes every counter.

Is the rest of your team "hopelessly hitting on 20s" for standard mobs such as those in Iz? If so, does your main rely on daily resources to get through these encounters?

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

Originally posted by forkofspite:

Is the rest of your team "hopelessly hitting on 20s" for standard mobs such as those in Iz? If so, does your main rely on daily resources to get through these encounters?

No, the rest of the party generally pulls their weight in other encounters. Urbrig and Seelah are the workhorses, and Ember can remove stubborn mobs with high AC that aren't worth the Angel bothering with, like skeletons with tower shields. It's really just the bossfights where everyone who isn't the main character feels like dead weight being carried. My main team is:

Main character (heaps of Oracle buffs and Angel lasers. Bossfight invalidator)
Seelah (conventional mounted paladin tank)
Urbrig (Just normal gryphon build)
Arue (normal Espionage Archer)
Ember (10 ranks into Loremaster to get a variety of fire spells. Usually she doesn't get to cast in battles though because everyone just zooms ahead and kills everything, and she can't metamagic on the move)
Nenio (10 ranks into Loremaster to do all the remaining buffs that Angel cannot).

[MjKorz]

Angel exists solely to serve as Nenio's enchantment receptacle and buff her spell DC with Unfailing Beacon as well as debuff her enemies' saves with Holy Hymn and Piercing Rays. It has no other purpose. Although serving as Nenio's dedicated tail comber and maybe foot stool is not out of the question.

The damage? It's 1/3 of what a proper ray caster can inflict at best (1.2k vs 4.5-5.7k and even higher with Sarkorian relics) against single targets and Nenio's spell expenditure against enemy packs is many times more efficient as she needs only a single level 2+ spell to shut down an entire room (sometimes map) with Hideous Laughter chaining via Best Jokes (which is now supposed to work against fliers after a recent patch). For smaller AoE Nenio can just make an entire group Helpless with Mass Hold Person/Monster and allow your party to Coup de Grace them.

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Angel exists solely to serve as Nenio's enchantment receptacle and buff her spell DC with Unfailing Beacon as well as debuff her enemies' saves with Holy Hymn and Piercing Rays. It has no other purpose. Although serving as Nenio's dedicated tail comber and maybe foot stool is not out of the question.

For someone lauding the praises of conjuration and illusion, you certainly are evocative.

Counterpoint however; you don't need anything at all for Angel to work. No items, no build - heck you don't even need feats. All you need is the Abundant Casting line and then Bolts of Justice do the rest. I suppose this is why I feel like I've robbed myself somehow - I didn't have to concoct anything or formulate a perfect build. It's just "haha bolts of justice go brr". Even the Fleshmarkets posed little problem.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Super Cosmic Space Magnet:

Counterpoint however; you don't need anything at all for Angel to work.

High power floor, but low ceiling. Bolt/Storm of Justice spells have inferior damage and more importantly spell slot expenditure compared to ray (vs single target) and AoE CC or instant death spells. Where you need to cast 2 level 8 Storms of Justice to clear a room Nenio can just cast one level 2 Hideous Laughter and call her martial janitors to clean up the mess.

[Wither]

Originally posted by Super Cosmic Space Magnet:

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Angel exists solely to serve as Nenio's enchantment receptacle and buff her spell DC with Unfailing Beacon as well as debuff her enemies' saves with Holy Hymn and Piercing Rays. It has no other purpose. Although serving as Nenio's dedicated tail comber and maybe foot stool is not out of the question.

For someone lauding the praises of conjuration and illusion, you certainly are evocative.

Counterpoint however; you don't need anything at all for Angel to work. No items, no build - heck you don't even need feats. All you need is the Abundant Casting line and then Bolts of Justice do the rest. I suppose this is why I feel like I've robbed myself somehow - I didn't have to concoct anything or formulate a perfect build. It's just "haha bolts of justice go brr". Even the Fleshmarkets posed little problem.

Depend on your approach. My current Angel Kineticist feels underwhelming. The char already did ridiculous damage to begin with, and on higher level it even ignore SR (Blue Flame). Trip? Push? Wall of damage? Insta-gib boss? Just make a call!
Great Sword of Heaven did add TWO damage dice on my 20ish dice. I kinda something. I rather spend turn gather power rather using Angel weak spell, though.

And if rolls getbad, like a lot of 1ish in row - you can just leg it and kit enemies around the map.

[darthdud0]

Originally posted by Super Cosmic Space Magnet:

Hello reader!

Part of what makes playing on Hard and Unfair so compelling and fascinating is that the game isn't at all shy about presenting you with gruesomely powerful enemies with prohibitively high AC. Players will need perfect builds, and a rounded party capable of providing a plethora of buffs and debuffs. When you overcome these challenges it feels like a great accomplishment, and I don't think I will ever forget the hardships and celebrations of my Last Azlanti Core run with Grimgor the two-handed fighter.

I am currently in Act 5 of a Hard campaign. I decided "hey, Hard is hard! I need to take this seriously. I'll make a mean as heck build and try my best to clear the campaign". So I went Angel-Oracle. I regret this decision, as it has all but completely invalidated every encounter in the game. An enemy can have over 9000 AC and it just does not matter, metamagic rodded Blade of Justice (devouring lust then quickened after) is enough to take 50% health or so off of an enemy. Baphomet, Playful Darkness, both Black Dragons~ Even if the rest of my party is hopelessly hitting on 20s, Angelbeam just goes brrr and deletes every counter.

I feel conflicted about this. Victory is inevitable, but I would have had to work so much harder if I'd been playing just about any other class or build. Angel is just so overwhelmingly powerful that even on Hard, every enemy in the game is reduced to "just nuke 'em from orbit with the holy space laser". I know I shouldn't feel guilty for using a powerful build to defeat the ungodly abominations that the bosses are on this difficulty setting, since that's the entire point of the game, but I also simultaneously feel like I've robbed myself of a good experience by doing so.

optimal is not always equal to fun, the feelings you showed are the reason i don't enjoy the demonslayer ranger, if you enjoy the challenge more then the victory, make a sub optimal build for the sake of fun, if you aren't having fun with a build then playing that build is bad since the point of a game is fun, play for fun. :)

[Echo]

Having also played an Angel-Oracle caster, I stopped around the end of Act 3, as it was getting boring.

The thing is, you can min-max this way regardless of mythic path (or conversely, you can make game-breaking builds with any mythic). So what I do now is pick non-synergistic combos and try to make them work :)

For example, I played an Azata Cavalier, which is rather suboptimal, and had a great time simply enjoying the story and crazy dialogue. By the end I felt just right in terms of power level.

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

I did try doing a challenge playthrough, but I ended up hamstringing myself so badly that the game wasn't even playable. :'D "new class every level" is not how the game wants to be played.

[darthdud0]

Originally posted by Super Cosmic Space Magnet:

I did try doing a challenge playthrough, but I ended up hamstringing myself so badly that the game wasn't even playable. :'D "new class every level" is not how the game wants to be played.

sub optimal is not equal to challenge run.

sub optimal can be cleric lich or bard angel or trickster fighter or other classes with low skill points, things where the class and path don't automatically stack but can still win.

sub optimal can be fun, challenge runs can be fun too but a different kind, try coming up with an idea that sounds interesting and give it a shot.

for me it is trying the lich cleric combo because i normally don't play divine casters and didn't want to play an angel BECAUSE it had synergy with cleric.

i hope you can find an idea that sounds fun and is fun to play, i love playing sub optimally because for me having fun is more important, if i am not having fun then i am playing wrong.

[Pury]

Play on unfair if hard is easy for you.

[Royale]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Angel exists solely to serve as Nenio's enchantment receptacle and buff her spell DC with Unfailing Beacon as well as debuff her enemies' saves with Holy Hymn and Piercing Rays. It has no other purpose. Although serving as Nenio's dedicated tail comber and maybe foot stool is not out of the question.

The damage? It's 1/3 of what a proper ray caster can inflict at best (1.2k vs 4.5-5.7k and even higher with Sarkorian relics) against single targets and Nenio's spell expenditure against enemy packs is many times more efficient as she needs only a single level 2+ spell to shut down an entire room (sometimes map) with Hideous Laughter chaining via Best Jokes (which is now supposed to work against fliers after a recent patch). For smaller AoE Nenio can just make an entire group Helpless with Mass Hold Person/Monster and allow your party to Coup de Grace them.

It's clear. Another clown minmaxer, who, apart from overclocking the DC for the caster and doing damage, can do nothing. Nenio is a standard glass cannon. No more. Nothing but damage and a controller can be made from it. The oracle angel easily clears the game solo starting from act 3. Well, do not forget that spam with 1 spell (hell ray) is SO "interesting"

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Royale:

apart from overclocking the DC for the caster and doing damage, can do nothing.

Yes, apart from clearing encounters 10 times more efficiently, Nenio can do nothing. Or would it be 100 times more efficiently? After all, we're discussing a single level 2 spell vs multiple casts of a level 8 spell lol.

Originally posted by Royale:

Nothing but damage and a controller can be made from it.

Correct, nothing but the strongest builds that completely humiliate any angel build can be made from Nenio.

Originally posted by Royale:

starting from act 3

LOL.

Reminder: if it takes you more than 1 round to kill or disable unfair bosses, you didn't beat the game. Here's Nenio disabling the unfair vescavor queen within 1 round with 100% success rate:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2884707966

Now post your angel build killing or disabling the vescavor queen within a single round.

Also, here's another reminder: unfair Deskari has 2.6k hp. Post your angel build soloing unfair Deskari within 1 round. A ray caster can easily do it, because he is capable of dishing out 4.5k damage naked and over 5.7k damage with gear:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2919895181

Now post your angel build doing 2.6k damage within a single round with those pitiful spells of yours. If you can't, we will just have to agree that angel is the weakest full mythic in the game.

[Moo]

Originally posted by Super Cosmic Space Magnet:

Hello reader!

Part of what makes playing on Hard and Unfair so compelling and fascinating is that the game isn't at all shy about presenting you with gruesomely powerful enemies with prohibitively high AC. Players will need perfect builds, and a rounded party capable of providing a plethora of buffs and debuffs. When you overcome these challenges it feels like a great accomplishment, and I don't think I will ever forget the hardships and celebrations of my Last Azlanti Core run with Grimgor the two-handed fighter.

I am currently in Act 5 of a Hard campaign. I decided "hey, Hard is hard! I need to take this seriously. I'll make a mean as heck build and try my best to clear the campaign". So I went Angel-Oracle. I regret this decision, as it has all but completely invalidated every encounter in the game. An enemy can have over 9000 AC and it just does not matter, metamagic rodded Blade of Justice (devouring lust then quickened after) is enough to take 50% health or so off of an enemy. Baphomet, Playful Darkness, both Black Dragons~ Even if the rest of my party is hopelessly hitting on 20s, Angelbeam just goes brrr and deletes every counter.

I feel conflicted about this. Victory is inevitable, but I would have had to work so much harder if I'd been playing just about any other class or build. Angel is just so overwhelmingly powerful that even on Hard, every enemy in the game is reduced to "just nuke 'em from orbit with the holy space laser". I know I shouldn't feel guilty for using a powerful build to defeat the ungodly abominations that the bosses are on this difficulty setting, since that's the entire point of the game, but I also simultaneously feel like I've robbed myself of a good experience by doing so.

The game just gets much easier toward the end regardless of which mythic path you chose. In my experience, the game is only "hard" before Act 3. For me, peak difficulty was Leper's Smile.

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

Yeah, when you're early in the game and don't have an arsenal of buffs and items, dealing with swarms natural resilience and gibber is far harder. You simply don't have tools at your disposal, and spell slots are so limited. It's an odd difficulty curve.