Advises for Party composition (Core or Hard)

[CoachMac]

I made a first game of WOTR before playing/finishing Kingmaker, with a Slayer Geralt built as main and in core difficulty.

It was decent, i made it to act III and lvl 10 but i want to restart from scratch now that i understand the rules better.

So looking to probably still play in Core (eventually hard but it might be too hard:) ) I am looking for a Party composition.



My kingmaker party:

(Core difficulty)

* Tank - Valery then main (Geralt Alchemist/duellist build)
* DPS - Nok Nok (best character)
* DPS/ - Regongar then I replaced him with a bard for final action
* Healer - Tristian
* Archer - Ekundayo
* Other - I had Linzy most of the game and a Merch Grenadier who was quite good and who had action here and there.


So for WORT...

My options for the main
1- Geralt build
1- Kinecist (but i really dont master that class)
2- Bard/Skald
3- Try to buil a Nok like DPS

My mythic path will be Aeon.

My projected party composition:

Starters:
* Seelah - Tank/Paladin
* Cameilia - DPS
* Lann - Priest(Crusader) + Archer

Could make the team:
* Arueshalae - Archer
* Woljit or Regill DPS
* Ember - Witch
* Daeran - Skald (?) or Oracle

Other not listed are excluded.

What do you guys think of these options ?

[Sin]

It honestly just comes down to wether or not you can get the significant buffs up for all the encounters you need them in while (if you want to have an easy time) endlessly procing outflanked.

since your main seems to be melee:
1) Seelah tank (no brainer really)

2) Camellia (Tank and proc / buff monky - very good in doing that though her tankiness suffers during act 2 till you pick up either stone skin or a pet for her. The pet requires a specific build though. That does not just happen.

3) Lann and Arueshalae are kinda the same slot, you can take both but I would decide on one of them.

4) Woljief .. I .. really don't like him. If you go full melee he works, but full melee works with pure casters pretending to be melees so that is not saying much about him.
Regill .. just isn't that good either. He works, good enough for core for sure, but if you are looking for power he ain't it unless you really want the giant melee front line.

5) Ember - very good early (hexes) decent mid (buffs), good late (damage caster) but EASILY failspeced. So be careful when you level her up. It is increadibly easy to ruin her.
An easier alternative would be Nenio, she can provide you with all the importent arcane buffs (like haste, blurr, greater invis, mage armor for your pets.. ) while providing aoe CC and potential insta kills on high priority targets. She CAN be a damage caster, but really shouldn't be. You can combine her and Ember as long as you keep their jobs seperated.

6) Daeran is an exellent divine buff bot and healer who can become a melee enabler like camellia if spected that way (he can get his pet sooner than camellia which makes him more survivable, though camellia has the better AC during a portion of the game when AC actually matters)

My recommendation would be to take Laan or Aru (really either or, they are both beyond op in what they are doing) replace your Woljief / Regill slot with a skald and than you are cooking with fire.

The general problem with advice like this is that you can build most of these characters in different ways which makes them useful / detremental for different party set ups.
When I say Daeren can be a melee enable I am more or less saying: give him second mystery nature with your first mythic rank (sacrificing abundant spell casting which hurts), put him on a wolf and have him dual wield rapiers next to camelia who is doing the same, just that she gets her Wolf later than he does. That makes him more universally useful, but weakens him in his primary role of party spell support.
You could also give him the red salamander ring and turn him into an evocation god (just like you can do with ember), but the two builds are mutually exclusive due to perk and mythic demands. He is good in all 3 slots he can fill, but not every party can benefit from all 3 of his "good" specs.

[DarkFenix]

Core isn't especially difficult, so long as you can buff, you'll win. So make sure you have at least one character who can tank (I'd say at least two to be safer), have a healer, some dps, and make sure you have a crapload of buffs as those are what make your party crazy strong even if they weren't before.

My last party was rather lacking in terms of anyone being an amazingly strong melee build, but everyone was mounted and I had an absurd number of buffs.

[CoachMac]

Can we manage without pets ?
for whatever reason 1 pet like Ekundayo is fine but i dont want so many pets...

[Chan]

Originally posted by CoachMac:

Can we manage without pets ?
for whatever reason 1 pet like Ekundayo is fine but i dont want so many pets...

Pets help, but aren't necessary at all. With good buffs and a couple of tanks anything should work in reality on core.

[Banana]

You maximum have 2 melee damage dealer or 3 which 1 of them either has reach weapon or Lunge perk, if not it wont be function very well because a lot of time you only have space for 2 melee dealer, and other melee dealer will stuck behind and cant do anything.
You can do without pet as long as your main tank must be tank very well, more focus on tank than damage, either Seelah or Camillia, but overall Camellia is the most tankiest of all characters with her high dex, iceplant hex and iceplant +2 accessory.

For core, as long as you know how to buff well, it wont be much problem, but for hard... you really need to know what you are doing, that your tank know how to tank well, your damage dealer able to have high BAB, because compare to kingmaker, Wrath enemies stat really spike up from time to time, for example, you need like almost 60 ac or more on late game, and 60 BAB. (normal enemies on HARD can have over 61 AC, boss has 72 - 92 AC in late game)
Its better Lann for pure Zen Archer, you need him to do snap shot and high BAB, and you can boost his damage by enlarge person or legendary proportion, since he just use wisdom for attack roll.

[DarkFenix]

Originally posted by Banana:

You maximum have 2 melee damage dealer or 3 which 1 of them either has reach weapon or Lunge perk, if not it wont be function very well because a lot of time you only have space for 2 melee dealer, and other melee dealer will stuck behind and cant do anything.
You can do without pet as long as your main tank must be tank very well, more focus on tank than damage, either Seelah or Camillia, but overall Camellia is the most tankiest of all characters with her high dex, iceplant hex and iceplant +2 accessory.

For core, as long as you know how to buff well, it wont be much problem, but for hard... you really need to know what you are doing, that your tank know how to tank well, your damage dealer able to have high BAB, because compare to kingmaker, Wrath enemies stat really spike up from time to time, for example, you need like almost 60 ac or more on late game, and 60 BAB. (normal enemies on HARD can have over 61 AC, boss has 72 - 92 AC in late game)
Its better Lann for pure Zen Archer, you need him to do snap shot and high BAB, and you can boost his damage by enlarge person or legendary proportion, since he just use wisdom for attack roll.

The first point here absolutely rings true. I ran four mounted melee characters (I was determined to get my all-mounted party) and while it's fine a lot of the time, there are plenty of fights in tight corridors or doorways, and it was a total ♥♥♥♥♥ trying to position.

Two close melee, one reach melee is about the limit to practicality. Other characters being capable of looking after themselves in melee is good, but it shouldn't be a focus.

Also yes, Lann is much better left alone as Zen Archer, it's crazy strong.

[Steffan]

Originally posted by CoachMac:

I made a first game of WOTR before playing/finishing Kingmaker, with a Slayer Geralt built as main and in core difficulty.

It was decent, i made it to act III and lvl 10 but i want to restart from scratch now that i understand the rules better.

,,,,

So for WORT...

My options for the main
1- Geralt build
1- Kinecist (but i really dont master that class)
2- Bard/Skald
3- Try to buil a Nok like DPS

My mythic path will be Aeon.

My projected party composition:

Starters:
* Seelah - Tank/Paladin
* Cameilia - DPS
* Lann - Priest(Crusader) + Archer

Could make the team:
* Arueshalae - Archer
* Woljit or Regill DPS
* Ember - Witch
* Daeran - Skald (?) or Oracle

Other not listed are excluded.

What do you guys think of these options ?

You don't need 100% optimized party even for hard. You have a lot of flexibility.

Woljif is great character-wise and gameplay ( he is a bit immature, very chaotic and has great voice acting). He might struggle a bit hitting on Hard but you can use true strike and quickened true strike to land his first sneak attack. His next hits for the round get a bonus.
You might also use his magic more offensively as now and then a well landed spell with a sneak attack is all you need . Try to invest heavily in Spell Pentration feats (including mythic)

[Banana]

If you built Woljif right he can be the most powerful ray blaster among all caster - his hellfire ray with sneak attack and sense vital deal huge amount of damage.

[Banana]

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Originally posted by Banana:

You maximum have 2 melee damage dealer or 3 which 1 of them either has reach weapon or Lunge perk, if not it wont be function very well because a lot of time you only have space for 2 melee dealer, and other melee dealer will stuck behind and cant do anything.
You can do without pet as long as your main tank must be tank very well, more focus on tank than damage, either Seelah or Camillia, but overall Camellia is the most tankiest of all characters with her high dex, iceplant hex and iceplant +2 accessory.

For core, as long as you know how to buff well, it wont be much problem, but for hard... you really need to know what you are doing, that your tank know how to tank well, your damage dealer able to have high BAB, because compare to kingmaker, Wrath enemies stat really spike up from time to time, for example, you need like almost 60 ac or more on late game, and 60 BAB. (normal enemies on HARD can have over 61 AC, boss has 72 - 92 AC in late game)
Its better Lann for pure Zen Archer, you need him to do snap shot and high BAB, and you can boost his damage by enlarge person or legendary proportion, since he just use wisdom for attack roll.

The first point here absolutely rings true. I ran four mounted melee characters (I was determined to get my all-mounted party) and while it's fine a lot of the time, there are plenty of fights in tight corridors or doorways, and it was a total ♥♥♥♥♥ trying to position.

Two close melee, one reach melee is about the limit to practicality. Other characters being capable of looking after themselves in melee is good, but it shouldn't be a focus.

Also yes, Lann is much better left alone as Zen Archer, it's crazy strong.

Well luckily now with Lunge, you can deal damage easily behind melee dealer, in fact lunge and reach weapon give you almost 11 feet distance, really great for attack of opportunity build as well.

[Goblin King Jareth]

Give thought to your skills to collect lots of xp with and their other resource and combat related reasons:

Wis
Perception A number 1 most important to find things on the map
Religion Fairly important to stave off abyss corruption rolls when far away from a safe place. Also good QoL for healing lots of conditions with first aid if you're missing a spell for it.
Nature Meh, skinning chump change, a few map bonuses

Dex
Trickery Second most important to get into treasure, disarm constant traps for bigger xp
Mobility Minimum 3 for anyone in defensive stance, very important for mounted combat and many map rolls
Stealth Meh, isolated story rolls that aren't even super important. Garbage in combat without a dedicated build for it sadly and even then it is sort of meme tier.

Str
Athletics is important in a lot of map movement like mobility but a pet usually gets to roll on either..not always though, and you don't really want Fluffy Doge or Fangsy Feast showing you up every time when you're playing Darkling Lord Egde'mon of the 9th Circle of EdGehenna.

Int
Arcana fair amount of fat map xp, convenience of identify items without visiting town
World fair amount of fat map xp, cooking and alchemy

Cha
Persuasion fair amount of important story checks/fat xp, important for intimidation builds
UMD depending on if you like wands and scrolls very much, I tend to not care and sell them

I play with maximum 4 members usually and try to compress roles and buffs down into as few classes as possible. That said I usually wind up with 1 divine, 1 arcane, 2 that can fill tank roles (for the constant rear ambushes) and at least 1 ranged dps that gets to continually apply damage.

[Yannir]

I don't want to spoil too much but don't rely on Camellia if you're going to play Aeon.

So personally I'd take out Camellia, add in Daeran, Woljif and Ember.

Leave Lann as an Archer. I always go with Sacred Huntsmaster on Lann for the pet but a Crusader Cleric could work too.

Get Seelah a horse. It makes her much, much tankier.

Woljif is great. He can handle all the buffs that Ember doesn't have due to the limited Witch spell list. He is also likely the best Dex tank out of all your companions, particularly with a dip into Duelist. And he can do good damage and handle your groups Rogue skills while at it.

Daeran is very versatile and you can go many ways with him but I'd go pure Oracle. It's a very strong class.

[Werdna]

Originally posted by CoachMac:

(Core difficulty)

So for WORT...
* Seelah - Tank/Paladin
* Cameilia - DPS
* Lann - Priest(Crusader) + Archer

Could make the team:
* Arueshalae - Archer
* Woljit or Regill DPS
* Ember - Witch
* Daeran - Skald (?) or Oracle

Other not listed are excluded.

What do you guys think of these options ?

With the exception of Arushalae every build that you mentioned here is unoptimal.
Seelah is a bad tank because tanking with shield and armor is the most ineffective thing you can do in this game.
Best Tanks that are not PC is everyone you mentioned afterwards -
- Camellia with 2lvl dip in Instinct Warrior.
2 Stats to your armor, 4 armor from shaman curse+ring that you can buy from priest merchant in act1 and MOST importantly for early game - uncanny dodge.
-Lann
He's already prediped in Monk so all you have to do is reversal - take 19 levels that boost your damage. Mutagen Warrior or Slayer.

-Damage
Regill requires sacred magic and pets to be good so hes meh.
Woljif deals less damage than Lann or Greybor in absolutely any scenario because he's a DEX character. His best build is Vivisectionist that allows him to give magic shield and other only "on self" spells to your allies.
Ember is a hellfire bot period.
Daeran is inferior to Sosiel in every single way possible due to his lack of domains(that break the game).
Also you need a arcane caster. If you don't want to play as one yourself then you're forced to take Nenio or create a merc.
Also magicless ranged combat is very very bad. But if you REALLY want this then play Wenduag with throwing axes.

[Steffan]

Originally posted by Inquisitor:

Woljif deals less damage than Lann or Greybor in absolutely any scenario because he's a DEX character. His best build is Vivisectionist that allows him to give magic shield and other only "on self" spells to your allies.

Woljif is far more reliable when you absolutely need to hit. He can cast a quickened true strike and hit and reduce the AC of the enemy. Greybor is bit unreliable. Lann is fine but I would disagree Woljif does less damage than Lann due to sneak attack.

Actually this with the shield and the alchemist is a bug from Kingmaker (one I quite readily abused, I admit).

[BossmanSlim]

They companion options are probably the worst part of WotR. If we look at the recommendations by "experts" in the game, the party would be the following based on unfair recommendations:

Lann - hunter/cleric/inquisitor - ranged dps with self buffing and a pet
Ember - ray caster/generic caster - ranged dps and/or group buffing
Kestoglyer (new) - shifter - melee dps

Maybe useful depending on spec
Camellia - ranged dps
Daeran - ranged dps
Sosiel - support

As you can see, there are two huge holes in the roles companions can fill, tank and melee dps. Tanking seems to be filled mainly by pets with Lann being specced into a class that can take a pet. Str and Con are the stats that mainly fill these rolls.

Top 4 companions in Str:
- Greybor 18, con 14, medium armor, if a shield is used a bunch of feats become a waste
- Seelah 18, con 14, heavy armor
- Lann 17, con 14, no armor, if specced into armor, first level becomes a waste
- Sosiel 16, con 14, medium armor

At the same time, apparently enemy to hit starts making AC worthless unless doing something to really stack the abilities at the end game levels. There is also no two handed weapon user. To me, this means that the player has to fill the main/off tank role and may be needing to be angled towards 2 handers.

Tanking is typically recommended to be:
- Level dip in a lot of classes to get all the low level bonuses
- Get a pet and use it as mount
- Nuke the enemy before they can do any real damage

[Yannir]

Originally posted by Inquisitor:

Daeran is inferior to Sosiel in every single way possible due to his lack of domains(that break the game).

If you go Inquisitor with Lann, having Sosiel only for the Domains is just unnecessary. Inquisitors get Domains. Discounting Domains, Daeran is just a far better caster than Sosiel.