Problem with wizard class

[Lunduke is the Trump of tech]

What wizards are supposed to be is an arcane spellcaster who's great strength is being able to have access to the most arcane spells than any other class. They should be ready for anything by memorizing the spells needed for where they're going.

But pathfinder ruleset doesn't like generalists. In pathfinder you must specialize. So all your offensive spells should preferably only be from 1 school of magic so you can get higher DR etc on those casts. Then you can use other schools for buffs and so on. This specialization isn't really what wizards are supposed to be about.

Another thing is that most schools don't even have any spells in some levels, at least no anything good. The best arcane schools are evocation and conjuration, if you pick anything else then it's probably for RP. Evocation is about maxing nukes and becoming a blaster. Conjuration is probably more what wizard is supposed to be, a generalist who summons creatures, does cc spells with grease, pit etc, and also damage spells single target and aoe, verstile school.

All the other schools are meh. Abjuration is mostly defensive spells so i guess its ok pick, but you still need need to choose spell focus for a different school. Illusion have very few offensive spells so same thing as abjuration. Divination is great in tabletop. The only school which is ok to spell focus feats in is necromancy, but necromancy isn't as good as conjuration or evocation. And necromancy has so much melee touch spells, the necromancy specialization bonus spell is melee touch, the vampire touch spell is melee touch and is also the only necro spell in that spell level. It's just an ok school but like I said conjuration or evocation is simply much better.

[LArc7thHeaven]

You want all around and become master of none eh? Unfortunately that's the rule, you can always set difficulty lower so that your build is viable until end game.

[DarkFenix]

This is always how it's been with video games, ones based on D&D too. Tabletop loves generalists, swiss army knife characters who aren't invincible in any one area but are prepared for almost any eventuality. Video games on the other hand carry a very tight focus, usually on combat.

[Steffan]

A work around the melee touch spells is the reach metamagic feat and the reach metamagic rod.

Enchantment has a lot of debilitating spells but it is really all or nothing school. The target saves and you get nothing or the target does not save and you win. Evocation is the opposite of that. You get something even out of a failed save

The big problem with the wizards is that you need to know what is ahead. If you don't, you end of with a bunch of useless spells. And as I tabletop player I have reached to the conclusion wizards are just not for me. That's why I like sorcerers and spontaneous casters in general. You spam your spells till oblivion and you drain every single drop of magic force out of yourself. And bloodlines are great.

To be honest, for WotR, I go mostly for increasing the damage through metamagic or spells that do not require saves. In general I consider spell focus in evocation to be a waste for all but Nenio and save/suck spells are rarely my speciality.

[MjKorz]

In Wrath, being a true generalist equally versed in all schools is indeed discouraged, because you need to overcome massive enemy saves via specialization, but that doesn't mean you cannot be a multi-school specialist. Some schools of magic like Enchantment and Conjuration require a backup school, if you want your spellcaster to be truly viable throughout the entirety of the game content. Enchantment needs a backup school to overcome the mind-affecting immunity of non-undead enemies with Gallus and certain Axiomites being the prime examples. Conjuration needs a backup school, because it has no AoE CC spells against flying enemies and anything else inherently immune to Prone condition. Thus, you can make multi-school Wizard specialists like Enchanter-Conjurer or Enchanter-Evoker and other combinations.

Wizards are the absolute best full arcane casting class to specialize in multiple schools of magic (they're the absolute best full arcane caster in general). Exploiter Wizard gets Potent Magic (+2 DC/CL) at level 1 while Diviner and Enchanter Wizards get Foretell-Hinder and Aura of Despair (-2 enemy save aura) at level 8. These abilities can be applied to spells from ANY school regardless of specialization. Comparatively, the sorcerer gets his +2 spell DC via School Power at level 15, but applies this bonus only to a single school of magic. No, you cannot benefit from School Power twice by taking Arcane bloodline a second time via Second Bloodline mythic ability. Arcanists lack the bonus feats of WIzards despite having Potent Magic, Witches lack the bonus feats as well. Neither can compete with the Wizard due to lack of bonus feats.

Conjuration is nowhere near the strongest school, it's actually very weak over the entire span of the game (not just the early game). While Conjuration has Grease and Glitterdust that bypass SR and make the early game quite easy, it falls off massively in the mid-late game where you start encountering massed flying enemies immune to Prone and thus immune to Grease. While Glitterdust retains its usefulness throughout most of the game, it's not a hard disable, it's just a very strong debuff that still allows the enemy to act. Conjuration's biggest problem is that at highest levels it has no AoE CC spells that work against fliers. That's a huge weakness.

Evocation is not about "becoming a blaster". While you can certainly make an Evoker focusing on AoE direct damage spells, your damage output will be subpar in a game where trash mobs can have 1k+ HP. Evocation is an extremely strong CC school, because it has a whole arsenal of disabling and debuffing effects: Daze, Stun, Paralysis, Prone, Blind and even Death via both Prismatic Spray (random) and Holy Word or Dictum (limited by the difference between caster CL and target HD). Evocation has one glaring weakness, though: spectral undead and flying undead with high enough HD to avoid being instakilled by Holy Word or Dictum. This enemy type is immune to every disabling effect in an Evoker's arsenal.

Of course, you can also play an Evoker by just being a ray caster spamming Scorching and Hellfire Rays, but this build also has its own weakness - lack of AoE.

The strongest school in the game is undeniably Illusion, it is entirely self-sufficient with an Undead bloodline dip and can bypass any and all immunities on Phantasmal Killer and Weird spells via Lich's Deadly Magic and Grandmaster's rod.

The second strongest school is Enchantment, but it needs a backup school. If Enchantment didn't need a backup school, it would be the strongest, because it reaches the highest spell DCs out of any school due to a combination of Fey bloodline arcana and the overabundance of mind-affecting, compulsion and enchantment DC boosting items. When enchantment is supported by Conjuration or Evocation as a backup school, you get arguably the strongest caster in the game, stronger than a pure Illusionist even, because you don't need charge-limited rods or mythic powers to bypass immunities.

Third strongest school would be evocation: very strong CC and the possibility to play a ray caster with damage output in the 10k/turn range.

Necromancy would be the 4th strongest school, but with a caveat. The only real AoE disable spell Necromancy has is Fear (and Banshee Blast which is just Fear with damage), which is great on paper, but is a massive annoyance to use in practice as it forces the enemies to run away from you. If you can stomach this annoyance, Necromancy is strong, though it still runs into the problem of mind-affecting immunity just like Enchantment, but unlike Enchantment it has many non-mind affecting spells for backup, though none of those spells are AoE disables. Yes, you get Absolute Death, but it's single target and comes online extremely late.

Conjuration is the second to weakest school overall. Yes, it's very strong in the early game, but as I already said it falls off massively in the mid- and late-game. Grease, Tsunami, pit spells (excluding the previously bugged Spike Pit) don't work against fliers and most enemies are immune to poison. You have strong single target disable in the form of Chains of Light, but it's only single target and AoE is a massive benefit.

Transmutation is the weakest school and suffers from the same problem as Conjuration: lack of AoE disabling spells that work against fliers. Yes, you have Polar Midnight, but it's not a disabling spell and many enemies in the game (including many bosses) are outright immune to ability damage/drain.

Abjuration and Divination are support schools and are not ranked in terms of offense.

[Invisible]

From the wiki: https://pathfinderwrathoftherighteous.wiki.fextralife.com/Specialist+School+-+Universalist

Specialist School - Universalist

Wizards who do not specialize (known as universalists) have the most diversity of all arcane spellcasters.

Hand of the Apprentice: You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp and strike a foe before instantly returning to you. As a standard action, you can make a single attack using a melee weapon at a range of 30 feet. This attack is treated as a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, except that you add your Intelligence modifier on the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier (Damage still relies on Strength). This ability cannot be used to perform a Combat Maneuver, You can use this ability a number or times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

Metamagic Mastery: At 8th level, you can extend or alter the range of your spell as though using the Extend or Reach spell feat accordingly. You can use this ability once per day at 8th level and one additional time per day for every two Wizard levels you possess beyond 8th.

Extend Spell: An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. A spell with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat.

Reach Spell: You can alter a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium to increase its range by one range category, using the following order: touch, close, medium, and long. Spells modified by this feat that require melee touch attacks instead require ranged touch attacks.

At 12th level, you can empower your next spell as though using the Empower Spell feat. Empowering costs 2 daily usages of metamagic mastery.

Empowered Spell: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those rice rolls. Saving Throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.

At 16th level, you can maximize your next spell as though using the Maximize spell feat. Maximizing costs 3 daily usages of metamagic mastery.

Maximized Spell: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.

At 20th level, you can quicken your next spell as though using the Quicken spell feat. Quickening costs 4 daily usages of metamagic mastery.

Quicken Spell: Casting a quickened spell is a Swift Action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.

[Kaze]

All of MjKorz' examples just prove the OP's point: Generalist Wizards are not ideal for the meta the game throws at you.

Main Character Wizard also assumes you take the Lich path... so right away you're locked into a build decision. Sure, Azata has Zippy Magic and Trickster has Completely Normal Spell... but that's about it.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Kaze:

All of MjKorz' examples just prove the OP's point: Generalist Wizards are not ideal for the meta the game throws at you.

Main Character Wizard also assumes you take the Lich path... so right away you're locked into a build decision. Sure, Azata has Zippy Magic and Trickster has Completely Normal Spell... but that's about it.

True generalists are not, Wizards that specialize in multiple schools of magic are perfectly fine.

Demon is the mythic path that reaches the highest spell DC possible through many buffs and can cast spells as move action.

Azata has Favorable Magic as well as Ode to Miraculous Magic and Songs of Steel and makes a great full arcane spellcaster, especially an Enchanter/Evoker or Enchanter/Conjurer.

Aeon has Aeon's Bane to cast spells as a move action, is the best dispeller in the game (better than Lich) and has a massive effective save debuff in the form of Zone of Predetermination (think AoE Touch of Law) as well as spell DC and CL boosting gazes and makes a very strong arcane caster.

Lich is strong too, but suffers from relatively low passive spell DC and lack of AoE save debuffs, which means Lich is THE weakest of all the mentioned mythic paths when it comes to casting AoE disabling spells due to Corrupt Magic being strictly single target.

[Soul]

OP should listen to Mjkorz.... he knows his stuff when it comes to wizards....

[Nito]

i mean with mythic paths you could be very strong in 2 or 3 schools because one feat or ability takes your feats on one school and duplicates it into another

And brother Conjuration mostly sucks it is either grease early game or meat grinder late game as summons exist only for enemies to kill them even with every single buff possible for them

if you want to get a bit better on other schools.....get metamagic

Pretty cool getting Extended Haste on lvl 4 and getting mythic to reduce metacost back to 3 LOL

[Soul]

Originally posted by Nito:

i mean with mythic paths you could be very strong in 2 or 3 schools because one feat or ability takes your feats on one school and duplicates it into another

And brother Conjuration mostly sucks it is either grease early game or meat grinder late game as summons exist only for enemies to kill them even with every single buff possible for them

if you want to get a bit better on other schools.....get metamagic

Pretty cool getting Extended Haste on lvl 4 and getting mythic to reduce metacost back to 3 LOL

or you could just get enduring and greater enduring and with gear be able to make that haste spell last 24 hours....

[Nito]

Originally posted by Soul:

or you could just get enduring and greater enduring and with gear be able to make that haste spell last 24 hours....

Haste is a round/level spell it doesn't get into 5 minutes to get into enduring TT

[Soul]

Originally posted by Nito:

Originally posted by Soul:

or you could just get enduring and greater enduring and with gear be able to make that haste spell last 24 hours....

Haste is a round/level spell it doesn't get into 5 minutes to get into enduring TT

5 minutes eh?..... one round is 6 seconds.... at level 20 you'd do normally 20 rounds with haste.... but if you can boost your caster level to 25 with say... robe of the seven sins + 3 caster level bonus... you only would need +2 from some other gear....

25 rounds is 150 seconds.... but extended?.... thats 300 seconds.... which is a 5 minute duration.... so 25 caster level and an extended spell with any 1 round / level spell like haste can be 5 minutes long...

[Baldurs_Gate_2]

Originally posted by Nito:

Originally posted by Soul:

or you could just get enduring and greater enduring and with gear be able to make that haste spell last 24 hours....

Haste is a round/level spell it doesn't get into 5 minutes to get into enduring TT

With caster level 25 and Extend MM you can get it to 24h.

[Nito]

Originally posted by Soul:

5 minutes eh?..... one round is 6 seconds.... at level 20 you'd do normally 20 rounds with haste.... but if you can boost your caster level to 25 with say... robe of the seven sins + 3 caster level bonus... you only would need +2 from some other gear....

25 rounds is 150 seconds.... but extended?.... thats 300 seconds.... which is a 5 minute duration.... so 25 caster level and an extended spell and any 1 round / level spell like haste can be 5 minutes long...

That is lvl 20 with extend for you heh but again that is lvl 20 you will keep 90% of the game with normal haste so not much of a solution

[Soul]

Originally posted by Nito:

Originally posted by Soul:

5 minutes eh?..... one round is 6 seconds.... at level 20 you'd do normally 20 rounds with haste.... but if you can boost your caster level to 25 with say... robe of the seven sins + 3 caster level bonus... you only would need +2 from some other gear....

25 rounds is 150 seconds.... but extended?.... thats 300 seconds.... which is a 5 minute duration.... so 25 caster level and an extended spell and any 1 round / level spell like haste can be 5 minutes long...

That is lvl 20 with extend for you heh but again that is lvl 20 you will keep 90% of the game with normal haste so not much of a solution

well I dont play wizards... im a sorcerer type of person... and with metamagic heighten I can just cast haste for every level from 3-9 just so I can be sure its always available pretty much...

plus its possible for some classes and setups to do it sooner... earliest ones I saw was level 16... but that was before things like robe of the seven sins existed I believe...