Lich > Legend Spellbook Question

[bingammj]

Hi everyone!

I've heard when a Lich with a merged spellbook abandons the path to become a Legend, they keep the Lich spells -- can anyone verify some details on how that works? My assumption is that most runs doing this were primary spellcasters and had full CL / spellcasting already when making the switch, but:

- What if someone can only cast 4th or 5th level spells by then?
- Would they continue to unlock Lich spells as they level up spellcasting with the 21st-40th levels, eventually getting the level 8/9 Lich spells?
- Can you use metamagic on Lich spells and keep the metamagicked version?
- If so, would you be able to use metamagic on Lich spells that you don't unlock until you're already a Legend?

I'm considering a run where I start off as a(n intelligent) martial and the arcane arts journey doesn't really begin in earnest until becoming a Lich. As the KC starts to dabble in the arcane he gets increasingly powerful but can't fully commit to the path, eventually breaking away to become a legend.

Mechanically, something like:
1) Steelblood Rager / Mutation Warrior start, single level dip into Wizard before Mythic 3 to merge spellbooks, then Eldritch Knight the rest of the way until Legend.
- Eventually ending up with 10 wizard levels, 10 EK levels, and 9 Loremaster levels for CL 28.
- The other 11 levels would be a combo of Steelblood, MW, and maybe Student of War (2) for int instead of dex to AC.
-I'd probably stick with the heavy armor, recognizing that a sorc/monk combo or sword saint levels would get more AC in pajamas.

2) Use Leyline Guardian as the spellcasting chassis instead (strength patron, eventually getting divine power)
- Start with 4 Steelblood (draconic bloodline)
- 2 level dip into LLG (get icy protector)
- 4 levels of Dragon Disciple. Might eventually come back for 4 more. I know 4 is typical for sorc gishes, but 5-8 aren't terrible for an int caster. Overall it yields 6 BAB, 6 caster levels, +4 STR / +2 CON / +2 INT, a bite, +3 natural armor, and 3 bloodline feats. IDK how much use the dragon form or breath would get
- EK 10 rest of the way to 20
- eventually get LLG up to 8 and Steelblood up to 12
- Steelblood 12, LLG 8, DD 8, EK 10 is 38 levels for CL 23 and BAB 32
- Final 2 levels could be a lot of things... Student of War 2, vivi / demonslayer, LM 1 for a spell I don't have, HK 1 for single use smite chaos, etc.

3) Most different of the 3, but maybe 40 levels of hexing for continuously useful hex DCs.
- Hagbound 20 for vile curse and 20 sylvan trickster for a more martial flavor
- Or 10 Witch + 10 Winter Witch + 4-8 more witch casting levels and the rest sylvan trickster
- I don't know how hexcrafter levels would compare with sylvan trickster (appreciate any thoughts there)

Totally recognize there are more optimal ways to complete unfair or build a demi-god - appreciate optimizations and improvements and recommendations, but I'll be playing on Core. Thanks everyone!

[Chronocide]

You should look at which class spellbooks can be combined with lich (it isn't any class with spells, only a few)
https://pathfinderwrathoftherighteous.wiki.fextralife.com/Mythic+Spellbook

Lich path is a real tricky one to level into. The spellbook combination, and then it only sometimes seems to be affected by arcane spell failure, and then at about mythic 7 your con score disappears and CHA becomes your HP stat which kinda changes your party role mid-game.

[bingammj]

Yeah I would be merging with either wizard or witch spellbooks. Just need to have at least 1 level in either of those classes before mythic 3 to be able to merge. I've never played Lich though so definitely appreciate any insights. I was aware at some point you turn undead and CON switches to CHA. As a Lich to Legend game, I'm not sure whether the Legend breakaway happens before or after then but don't expect it will matter much either way.

[Raikon]

I've never made a legend from a lich arcane caster. However I have made a swarm from a lich. I did keep all the spells

[Chronocide]

Hmm...

Originally posted by bingammj:

Hi everyone!
Mechanically, something like:
1) Steelblood Rager / Mutation Warrior start, single level dip into Wizard before Mythic 3 to merge spellbooks, then Eldritch Knight the rest of the way until Legend.
- Eventually ending up with 10 wizard levels, 10 EK levels, and 9 Loremaster levels for CL 28.
- The other 11 levels would be a combo of Steelblood, MW, and maybe Student of War (2) for int instead of dex to AC.
-I'd probably stick with the heavy armor, recognizing that a sorc/monk combo or sword saint levels would get more AC in pajamas.

Why the steelblood rager? You do understand that the bloodrager specifically says that the arcane spell spell failure ignored by that class only applies to that class's spells...? Wouldn't apply to the lich/wizard spells. Seems like you'll have a lot of arcane spell failure...at least in heavy armor

Originally posted by bingammj:

2) Use Leyline Guardian as the spellcasting chassis instead (strength patron, eventually getting divine power)
- Start with 4 Steelblood (draconic bloodline)
- 2 level dip into LLG (get icy protector)
- 4 levels of Dragon Disciple. Might eventually come back for 4 more. I know 4 is typical for sorc gishes, but 5-8 aren't terrible for an int caster. Overall it yields 6 BAB, 6 caster levels, +4 STR / +2 CON / +2 INT, a bite, +3 natural armor, and 3 bloodline feats. IDK how much use the dragon form or breath would get
- EK 10 rest of the way to 20
- eventually get LLG up to 8 and Steelblood up to 12
- Steelblood 12, LLG 8, DD 8, EK 10 is 38 levels for CL 23 and BAB 32
- Final 2 levels could be a lot of things... Student of War 2, vivi / demonslayer, LM 1 for a spell I don't have, HK 1 for single use smite chaos, etc.

Witch patron, as far as I know, only gives bonus spells if you have more levels in witch...don't think the strength patron bit will apply here. Winter witch has a special exception, but not the other prestige classes. So you'll get whatever 2 levels of LLG will grant in the strength patron...

I do like the dragon disciple, and have considered the spontaneous INT witch.

And there's that steelblood again...looks like another arcane spell failure build.

Originally posted by bingammj:

3) Most different of the 3, but maybe 40 levels of hexing for continuously useful hex DCs.
- Hagbound 20 for vile curse and 20 sylvan trickster for a more martial flavor
- Or 10 Witch + 10 Winter Witch + 4-8 more witch casting levels and the rest sylvan trickster
- I don't know how hexcrafter levels would compare with sylvan trickster (appreciate any thoughts there)

Totally recognize there are more optimal ways to complete unfair or build a demi-god - appreciate optimizations and improvements and recommendations, but I'll be playing on Core. Thanks everyone!

Kinda doubt the Hex DC stacks between classes. I suspect you'll end up with separate DC hexes.

Should look into the Hellknight Signifier with Order of the Gate. With 2 levels in, you ignore 25% arcane spell failure. And it gets better with more levels. If going the heavy armor arcane caster route, that's it.

As for legend route...and combinations you haven't posted yet:

I did find that the Oracle Curse stacks levels of their curse with the Stigmitized Witch Curse. Good potential with Mystic Theurge.

LLG with winter patreon meets requirements for both DD AND winter witch. So you could be as bland as 20 LLG witch, 10 DD, and 10 Winter Witch. That said, I think the caster level caps lower than that, so I don't think there's much merit to this.

[bingammj]

@Raikon - thanks, from what I hear the same thing happens with Legend. I'm still curious whether it lets you keep all the Lich spells including ones you haven't unlocked yet (e.g. able to cast level 5 Lich spells, becomes legend and gains more caster levels --> at 6th+ level spells would I just have access to the base spellbook or also level 6+ Lich spells?)

@Chronocide - thanks for the thoughtful responses here:
1 - Steelblood lets you cast all arcane spells in heavy armor without failure. It's not working as the description suggests (no clue whether that's working as intended or bugged, but it is what it is)

2 - Yes definitely recognize hellknight signifier provides another route towards casting without failure in heavy armor, but I prefer the Steelblood route for now as long as it's working

3 - Witch Strength patron's best spells are at 2 levels for Divine Favor and 8 levels for Divine Power. Maybe it would be worth going to 10 levels for Righteous Might. It is a bit sad to wait so long for Divine Power but I don't think it would be worth the slower BAB progression compared to EK levels at that point in the build. The overall goal is to have an effective martial character for the early/mid levels that slowly becomes a powerful gish.

4 - I tested the overlapping hex DCs on inevitable excess DLC and they do stack:
-- 18 levels of witch + 10 winter witch (28 caster levels which is max for legend) + 12 levels of sylvan trickster at character level 40.
-- Hex DC is (10 + 1/2 the witch’s level + the witch’s Intelligence modifier)
-- Hex DC 46 with this quick test character. With a +16 Int modifier (just basic items bought quickly at beginning of the DLC) all hex DCs were (10 + 20 from 40 levels + 16 from int). Interestingly, Hoarfrost is the only hex with the cold modifier and it did get the +3 from winter witch (so DC 49 for hoarfrost).
-- The only way to get higher hex DC is to stack more INT and never deviate from a hexing class (so sylvan trickster or hexcrafter for witch/WW levels)
-- Spell focus in transmutation does NOT add DC to the animal servant hex

5 - Caster level for Legend is capped at 28, and depending on the goal there are diminishing returns with higher CL. You need CL 25 if you want the 24-hour buffs from greater enduring spells, but for a Legend that comes at the cost of taking up your only two mythic feat/power slots. For a gish-focused legend, it's tough to break away from mythic power attack...

Thanks for the discussion and looking forward to hearing any other thoughts!

I'm still hoping someone has the answer to my first/main questions:
1) when a legend keeps the lich spellbook after switching paths, can they ALSO unlock higher level lich spells or do they only keep any already-unlocked lich spells?
2) Are there any metamagic considerations to keeping lich spells after switching paths?