Anevia alignment

[Razer]

Now I know Owlcat doesn't really understand alignment and it's a bit messed in this game, but one thing I do have to question. Anevia. According to the Pathfinder wiki Anevia is Neutral Good. But the ♥♥♥♥ she does for you without much question or the ♥♥♥♥ she lets you get away with... murder, human sacrifice, the list is pretty hefty. She's of course not the only one, but she's involved in a few quests/moments where she actively participates in allowing/causing these things. How... is she Neutral Good?

[Duder]

I'd agree. I'd say she's more true neutral. If she was NG she would have reported a certain someone to an official over the commander's head. She wouldn't stand idly by and allow innocents to be murdered.
Then again she is NG in the pnp. I don't think they list her alignment anywhere in WOTR unless I missed something.

Then there's Daeran. Because he's rich and can afford to stage elaborate pranks that makes him evil? He's kind to all of the companions, even if they insult him. He kinda takes Ember under his wing, and I haven't seen anything else that convinces me he's Neutral Evil.
If anything, Chaotic Neutral.

[Von Herbst]

Because the Commander is the biggest chance for the greater good, even if he want to use bioweapons against the enemy.
I would even argue that she is one of the better examples for modern usage of the quite silly concept of Alignment classification for mortals, because she clearly sees and dislike our wrong doing, but understand that some actions cant be done with clean hands.

[Razer]

Originally posted by Von Herbst:

Because the Commander is the biggest chance for the greater good, even if he want to use bioweapons against the enemy.
I would even argue that she is one of the better examples for modern usage of the quite silly concept of Alignment classification for mortals, because she clearly sees and dislike our wrong doing, but understand that some actions cant be done with clean hands.

You're not describing a neutral good npc. you're describing a chaotic neutral or even evil one.

Originally posted by Duder:

I'd agree. I'd say she's more true neutral. If she was NG she would have reported a certain someone to an official over the commander's head. She wouldn't stand idly by and allow innocents to be murdered.
Then again she is NG in the pnp. I don't think they list her alignment anywhere in WOTR unless I missed something.

Then there's Daeran. Because he's rich and can afford to stage elaborate pranks that makes him evil? He's kind to all of the companions, even if they insult him. He kinda takes Ember under his wing, and I haven't seen anything else that convinces me he's Neutral Evil.
If anything, Chaotic Neutral.

Yea I never felt Daeran was evil. Even though his pranks sometimes push boundaries. He's more neutral.

[reidj062]

Originally posted by Razer:

Now I know Owlcat doesn't really understand alignment and it's a bit messed in this game, but one thing I do have to question. Anevia. According to the Pathfinder wiki Anevia is Neutral Good. But the ♥♥♥♥ she does for you without much question or the ♥♥♥♥ she lets you get away with... murder, human sacrifice, the list is pretty hefty. She's of course not the only one, but she's involved in a few quests/moments where she actively participates in allowing/causing these things. How... is she Neutral Good?

Oh boy, what Anevia lets you get away with is nothing compared to what Tristan got away with as "neutral good" in Kingmaker. Anevia is realistically neutral leaning on good. Her alignment is irrelevant, anyway, given she's not a divine caster.

You'll see what makes Daeran "NE" after....like act 1 or so? Although I would argue that a certain amount of that is not on him.

[Duder]

Originally posted by reidj062:

Originally posted by Razer:

Now I know Owlcat doesn't really understand alignment and it's a bit messed in this game, but one thing I do have to question. Anevia. According to the Pathfinder wiki Anevia is Neutral Good. But the ♥♥♥♥ she does for you without much question or the ♥♥♥♥ she lets you get away with... murder, human sacrifice, the list is pretty hefty. She's of course not the only one, but she's involved in a few quests/moments where she actively participates in allowing/causing these things. How... is she Neutral Good?

Oh boy, what Anevia lets you get away with is nothing compared to what Tristan got away with as "neutral good" in Kingmaker. Anevia is realistically neutral leaning on good. Her alignment is irrelevant, anyway, given she's not a divine caster.

You'll see what makes Daeran "NE" after....like act 1 or so? Although I would argue that a certain amount of that is not on him.

Not his fault he got possessed by an entity and accidentally killed some innocents as a child
If that's what you're talking about.
Yes he cares mainly about himself and is possibly a sociopath but that doesn't automatically make him evil per se

[.//slayer]

Originally posted by Razer:

You're not describing a neutral good npc. you're describing a chaotic neutral or even evil one.

No, Anevia's character fits pretty much perfectly in the role of a mediator, which is listed as an example of a Neutral Good behaviour on Paizo's website:

It is not possible for all members of a community to have their way; life is all about compromise, and mediators specialize in steering rational individuals to agreeable terms and favorable outcomes. When things go badly or they must deal with hostile people, mediators do not rashly pull their weapons on others, but instead offer alternative options for resolution through diplomacy or intimidation. Of course, many creatures lack enlightenment, and thus don’t accept compromise. When words fall on deaf ears, mediators resort to weapons to win the day.

Chaotic Neutral for Anevia would be way off the mark.

Originally posted by Duder:

Not his fault he

It wasn't an accident, but the result of a conscious decision. I think it puts the child Daeran pretty firmly into the evil camp, although he hasn't commited any major crimes by the time we meet him in the game, so he probably had enough time to shift towards neutral. I agree that Chaotic Neutral is a perfect way to describe him.

[Ishan451]

Originally posted by Duder:

I'd agree. I'd say she's more true neutral. If she was NG she would have reported a certain someone to an official over the commander's head. She wouldn't stand idly by and allow innocents to be murdered.

She not only explains her decision but also doesn't Good alignment mean you always have to take the altruistic path. As long as she mostly takes the altruistic path she will be of good alignment. Just like an evil character still can put others ahead of themselves the will remain evil if at the end of the day their actions are selfserving.

Anevia explains she ops for you to deal with it because of the Reputation damage to the person everyone needs to believe in and that you need to decide if her Evil is outweighed by her contribution as one of the people receiving your power.

Also, there isnt someone over your head except for the Queen. A murderer that kills 2-3 people when hundreds die daily on the battlefield is hardly something the Queen will care for. Other than the fact that you tolerate the murders which could torpedo your command and all the good you do even if you are evil.

Originally posted by Duder:

Then there's Daeran. Because he's rich and can afford to stage elaborate pranks that makes him evil? He's kind to all of the companions, even if they insult him. He kinda takes Ember under his wing, and I haven't seen anything else that convinces me he's Neutral Evil.
If anything, Chaotic Neutral.

He is constantly selfserving, that makes him evil in pathfinder. It is easier to understand it as altruistic vs egocentric and social convention abiding vs freespirited. Law vs chaos doesnt carry as much baggage as good vs evil does so the later might not be needed, but altruistic vs egocentric gets you out of that Disney Good vs Evil headspace.

[.//slayer]

Originally posted by Ishan451:

He is constantly selfserving, that makes him evil in pathfinder.

Does it? It's not like Daeran wishes to inflict suffering upon anyone - he's just self-serving. I'll quote another sample text from Paizo that is listed under Chaotic Neutral:

A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those others suffer). a chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as he is to cross it.

If that's not Daeran, then who is?

[Duder]

Originally posted by Ishan451:

Originally posted by Duder:

I'd agree. I'd say she's more true neutral. If she was NG she would have reported a certain someone to an official over the commander's head. She wouldn't stand idly by and allow innocents to be murdered.

She not only explains her decision but also doesn't Good alignment mean you always have to take the altruistic path. As long as she mostly takes the altruistic path she will be of good alignment. Just like an evil character still can put others ahead of themselves the will remain evil if at the end of the day their actions are selfserving.

Anevia explains she ops for you to deal with it because of the Reputation damage to the person everyone needs to believe in and that you need to decide if her Evil is outweighed by her contribution as one of the people receiving your power.

Also, there isnt someone over your head except for the Queen. A murderer that kills 2-3 people when hundreds die daily on the battlefield is hardly something the Queen will care for.

Originally posted by Duder:

Then there's Daeran. Because he's rich and can afford to stage elaborate pranks that makes him evil? He's kind to all of the companions, even if they insult him. He kinda takes Ember under his wing, and I haven't seen anything else that convinces me he's Neutral Evil.
If anything, Chaotic Neutral.

He is constantly selfserving, that makes him evil in pathfinder. It is easier to understand it as altruistic vs egocentric and social convention abiding vs freespirited. Law vs chaos doesnt carry as much baggage as good vs evil does so the later might not be needed, but altruistic vs egocentric gets you out of that Disney Good vs Evil headspace.

We could go on about alignment for years. Everyone views them as they view the world in their own way.
BG3 has NO alignments I know now. Another reason making me not want to play it.
I usually always role play my alignment, while others just do as they see fit and let their alignments change accordingly.

[revan1229]

Originally posted by .//slayer:

Originally posted by Ishan451:

He is constantly selfserving, that makes him evil in pathfinder.

Does it? It's not like Daeran wishes to inflict suffering upon anyone - he's just self-serving. I'll quote another sample text from Paizo that is listed under Chaotic Neutral:

A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those others suffer). a chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as he is to cross it.

If that's not Daeran, then who is?

I mean, forcing his guards to drink a love potion, making that one knight's helmet into a chamber pot, and trying to to make Arueshalae fail at repenting is not what I'd call the behavior of a CN individualist just out for himself. He's actively antagonizing people (which Woljif, who is clearly CN, does not do).

[Ishan451]

Originally posted by .//slayer:

Originally posted by Ishan451:

He is constantly selfserving, that makes him evil in pathfinder.

Does it? It's not like Daeran wishes to inflict suffering upon anyone

Yes. Evil alignment in pathfinder doesn't mean you want to hurt people, unless you are an outsider and born in a plane of evil. For mortals it really just is egoism.

Originally posted by .//slayer:

If that's not Daeran, then who is?

"Chaotic evil is all about self aggrandizement and fulfilling the individual's desires no matter the cost to anyone else. This ranges from the mad monk, who seeks to return insane outer gods so he may rule what is left of the world, to the armored bully, who enforces his will through brute force and intimidation.

Chaotic evil can be charming and urbane, but brooks no resistance to its goals except those imposed by a stronger force. Even then, it schemes to remove the obstruction without any personal sacrifice. "

This better describes Daeran. Dont forget he isnt with you for the good of anyone. He is your companion because the Queen orders him. You find him being Nero in a burning Kenebras and once out of the City he prepares to take a vacation abroad.

Originally posted by Duder:

BG3 has NO alignments I know now. Another reason making me not want to play it.

Iirc PF2e is removing them soon too.

[Duder]

I thought Jaethal in Kingmaker was a perfect representation of Neutral Evil
Sacrificed her own family to Urgathoa so she could be young forever
Well kinda she's like a vampire that doesn't drink blood. I can't remember if they had a name for what she was, because she was undead

[Soul]

Originally posted by Razer:

Now I know Owlcat doesn't really understand alignment and it's a bit messed in this game, but one thing I do have to question. Anevia. According to the Pathfinder wiki Anevia is Neutral Good. But the ♥♥♥♥ she does for you without much question or the ♥♥♥♥ she lets you get away with... murder, human sacrifice, the list is pretty hefty. She's of course not the only one, but she's involved in a few quests/moments where she actively participates in allowing/causing these things. How... is she Neutral Good?

I think your view on alignments are probably whats the issue.... I mean this game kinda makes points about the alignment system and how and why characters behave the way they do... take Seelah and Regil for instance at lost chapel... she is shocked that he is helping people because she just views him as being evil and not willing to help allies.... Regil points out how his actions shouldnt be a surprise to her if she's been paying attention.... its like that comment was there as a jab at the player that things are not always black and white...

as for her being neutral good?.... yeah it makes sense to me... she is someone who leans towards more good actions than neutral or evil... and she likes to do her job from outside the law as spymaster... taking care of things under the radar....

as for her experience with the commander?.... I mean you have someone show up and save your butt from death in the caves.... gets you out of the caves and reunited with your lover.... while uncovering a spy ring and their base of operations.... they help you defend the tavern and resolve the threat to the world from wardstones exploding.... while gaining power that makes everyone think they are the "chosen" of the goddess to save them.... that same person becomes a commander of the 5th crusade (which point she already points out how dangerous you are and hopes its to the enemies...) and marches to Drezen.... where your lover gets kidnapped this time and the commander saves her while their power grows yet again... they manage to take back a city after 70 years of it being lost to the demons while their power grows yet again and ends up changing the holy banner when they touch it...

so by all that time she has seen you perform miracles and is worried about your power.... and knows your companions are blessed with some of that same power through you... she points out when she reports to you about Sosiel gambling habits that she's keeping an eye on your circle just in case.... but with you being the commander AND a "chosen" one by the gods.... her hands are somewhat tied on what she could do from the shadows like normal... you saved her family twice... so choices involving your inner circle would either be done in secret... like an assassination (chaotic action) or she would report to you her findings... (lawful action)....

[AlexMBrennan]

Yea I never felt Daeran was evil.

Did you not pay attention during his personal quest? Because he is happily conspiring with an evil outsider to murder innocents.

[Immortal Reaver]

Seems people are really set in aligments and gods forbid if character does 1 or 2 act that does not conform to the strict guidelines.
Or that there is whole range of Neutral Evil, from very close to True/Chaotic/Lawful Neutral and to the furthest down on aligment circle with full on Evil, that boils children alive.

Regill is LE, but closer to LN than to NE or Neutral. But still Evil.
Daeran might be close to CN, but still falls into NE. His disregard for life of others, and putting life of others in danger on purpose (outside of his loved ones and Ember, but she is anomaly as almost everybody likes her) makes him enough of Evil to be in NE.