Spell resistance mechanics

[Angelis Mortis]

I think my biggest complaint about PF:WOTR and one of my few complaints because I love the game is how spell resistance works and how much of it there is. I've found that especially at the higher levels spell resistance is so strong and on everything that it almost makes magic users useless. Coupled with high saving throws it almost completely nullifies magic use. One of the reasons I love pathfinder is because of the flexibility and near limitless choices in builds and play. The problem here is SR is so encompassing and overpowered that it severely restricts choices in builds by either forcing you into less magic oriented builds or magic builds tailored to overcome it (which it can't do completely or even effectively) thereby using feats and such that you could have used to flesh out your character more.

Now I'm not saying SR should be removed, but I think there is a better way of doing it. Here are some ideas:

1. At a minimum, less proliferation of SR. It should only be on very special opponents. Rank and file should very rarely have any and if so it should be fairly easy to overcome.

2. Maybe a rework of the mechanic. Instead of flat dispelling the effect, what about successful resistance giving advantage on saving throws or giving a saving throw where you normally wouldn't have one?

3. Another optional rework of the level of SR on things. Maybe just cut it in half or to 2/3 current levels? Even that would make magic use at least successful more often.

The bottom line is this: Magic users feel useless the higher level they are. This should be the opposite of what the progression should feel like. At higher levels they should feel almost like Gods, wiping groups of minions in a single fireball or posing a serious threat to stronger enemies, their weakness being fragility and susceptibility to attack. You know? Like a wizard. Anyway, I just wanted to toss this out to see if others have gotten the same impression.

[Uzkin]

There are enough ways to overcome SR in the game - feats, gear, mythic abilities, etc.

Spell resistance is fine as it is.

[Soul]

right now im level 11 with my sorcerer with 22 spell penetration in Act 3... once I do Azata quest i'll probably be level 12 and be able to bump that up to 27 thanks to ode to miraculous magic...

[reidj062]

I will agree it gets annoying, especially when the higher level enemies have +38 saves. On top of SR higher than any creature in the real game. Spell penetration, mythic penetration, and greater spell penetration are key, I do need to double check to confirm, but I believe SR levels are the one thing that don't drop with changes in difficulty, so you really want to prioritize that with a caster. You can also get items that add +2 to spell school DCs. Heighten spell is also great, especially if you pair it as a favorite metamagic.

[Soul]

Originally posted by reidj062:

I will agree it gets annoying, especially when the higher level enemies have +38 saves. On top of SR higher than any creature in the real game. Spell penetration, mythic penetration, and greater spell penetration are key, I do need to double check to confirm, but I believe SR levels are the one thing that don't drop with changes in difficulty, so you really want to prioritize that with a caster. You can also get items that add +2 to spell school DCs. Heighten spell is also great, especially if you pair it as a favorite metamagic.

from Act 2 start...
robe of inevitability +2 spell penetration.... from Woljif
covenant of the inheritor +2 spell penetration... unlock with storyteller

from Act 3 start...
goggles of pure sight +1 spell penetration... from jewelry trader
ring of pyromania +2 spell penetration... from Arsinoe (priest in Drezen)

all those stack with each other... covenant just doesnt show on the spellbook as stacking... but it does stack... so start of Act 3 you can have a total of +7 to spell penetration... and having spell penetration and greater spell penetration would give you a +4 total..... so combined +11 to spell penetration... and you are probably level 10 at least by Act 3 so that means you'd be sitting at +21 to spell penetration before leaving Drezen....

[Ishan451]

Originally posted by Angelis Mortis:

Magic users feel useless the higher level they are.

I would say that is more of a build issue than actually a problem with Magic Users.

Originally posted by Angelis Mortis:

This should be the opposite of what the progression should feel like.

My Ember, in my current game, has a Spell Penetration of 35 at level 16. Sosiel, who is mostly a Buffer and Healer, has one of 26.

And an enemy i encounter right now, is a level 20 Greater Earth Elemental... coming at me with a Spell Resistance of 21. Admittedly there are also level 10 Demons standing around with a Spell Resistance of 22 and i would have to find a miniboss to check their spell resistance for the purpose of this post... but Spell Penetration is the least of my issues.

I have to pretty much roll a 1 to fail Spell Resistance as far as i can tell.

Originally posted by Angelis Mortis:

At higher levels they should feel almost like Gods

Pathfinder is notorious for curbing the power of spell casters. PF1e isn't as bad as PF2e, but both systems have curbed the power of spell casters.

Originally posted by Angelis Mortis:

Anyway, I just wanted to toss this out to see if others have gotten the same impression.

Nah, not my impression with the game. I still think Casters are quite powerful... even though you can build some really fierce Melee chars in this game.

[mk11]

Originally posted by Soul:

Originally posted by reidj062:

I will agree it gets annoying, especially when the higher level enemies have +38 saves. On top of SR higher than any creature in the real game. Spell penetration, mythic penetration, and greater spell penetration are key, I do need to double check to confirm, but I believe SR levels are the one thing that don't drop with changes in difficulty, so you really want to prioritize that with a caster. You can also get items that add +2 to spell school DCs. Heighten spell is also great, especially if you pair it as a favorite metamagic.

from Act 2 start...
robe of inevitability +2 spell penetration.... from Woljif
covenant of the inheritor +2 spell penetration... unlock with storyteller

from Act 3 start...
goggles of pure sight +1 spell penetration... from jewelry trader
ring of pyromania +2 spell penetration... from Arsinoe (priest in Drezen)

all those stack with each other... covenant just doesnt show on the spellbook as stacking... but it does stack... so start of Act 3 you can have a total of +7 to spell penetration... and having spell penetration and greater spell penetration would give you a +4 total..... so combined +11 to spell penetration... and you are probably level 10 at least by Act 3 so that means you'd be sitting at +21 to spell penetration before leaving Drezen....

As long as you only have one offensive spell caster.

[Soul]

Originally posted by mk11:

Originally posted by Soul:

from Act 2 start...
robe of inevitability +2 spell penetration.... from Woljif
covenant of the inheritor +2 spell penetration... unlock with storyteller

from Act 3 start...
goggles of pure sight +1 spell penetration... from jewelry trader
ring of pyromania +2 spell penetration... from Arsinoe (priest in Drezen)

all those stack with each other... covenant just doesnt show on the spellbook as stacking... but it does stack... so start of Act 3 you can have a total of +7 to spell penetration... and having spell penetration and greater spell penetration would give you a +4 total..... so combined +11 to spell penetration... and you are probably level 10 at least by Act 3 so that means you'd be sitting at +21 to spell penetration before leaving Drezen....

As long as you only have one offensive spell caster.

yeah my sorcerer is only offensive magic caster.... have Nenio always but keep her on buff duty right now

[reidj062]

Originally posted by Soul:

Originally posted by reidj062:

I will agree it gets annoying, especially when the higher level enemies have +38 saves. On top of SR higher than any creature in the real game. Spell penetration, mythic penetration, and greater spell penetration are key, I do need to double check to confirm, but I believe SR levels are the one thing that don't drop with changes in difficulty, so you really want to prioritize that with a caster. You can also get items that add +2 to spell school DCs. Heighten spell is also great, especially if you pair it as a favorite metamagic.

from Act 2 start...
robe of inevitability +2 spell penetration.... from Woljif
covenant of the inheritor +2 spell penetration... unlock with storyteller

from Act 3 start...
goggles of pure sight +1 spell penetration... from jewelry trader
ring of pyromania +2 spell penetration... from Arsinoe (priest in Drezen)

all those stack with each other... covenant just doesnt show on the spellbook as stacking... but it does stack... so start of Act 3 you can have a total of +7 to spell penetration... and having spell penetration and greater spell penetration would give you a +4 total..... so combined +11 to spell penetration... and you are probably level 10 at least by Act 3 so that means you'd be sitting at +21 to spell penetration before leaving Drezen....

The problem however, is that this is based on knowing where every item that boosts penetration is within the game and min-maxing the crap out of things. Feat-wise, you're also losing opportunities to boost other things like defensive abilities (ie- toughness, dodge).

WOTR is exhausting because it basically demands you design your character in a spreadsheet ahead of time, not to mention the 5 whole minutes you spend buffing before each fight, and the 1-2 minutes inspecting each enemy combatant to figure out which 32 spells they are randomly immune to.

[.//slayer]

Originally posted by reidj062:

WOTR is exhausting because it basically demands you design your character in a spreadsheet ahead of time, not to mention the 5 whole minutes you spend buffing before each fight, and the 1-2 minutes inspecting each enemy combatant to figure out which 32 spells they are randomly immune to.

You say "exhausting," I say "interesting" and "worth playing." Also, 5 minutes on debuffs is an overstatement. There are maybe 15 buffs worth keeping up, and how long does it take you to click 15 buttons?

[Angelis Mortis]

Originally posted by Uzkin:

There are enough ways to overcome SR in the game - feats, gear, mythic abilities, etc.

Spell resistance is fine as it is.

That's my point though. It forces you to take that route in order to overcome it which really limits options.

[Angelis Mortis]

Originally posted by Soul:

Originally posted by reidj062:

I will agree it gets annoying, especially when the higher level enemies have +38 saves. On top of SR higher than any creature in the real game. Spell penetration, mythic penetration, and greater spell penetration are key, I do need to double check to confirm, but I believe SR levels are the one thing that don't drop with changes in difficulty, so you really want to prioritize that with a caster. You can also get items that add +2 to spell school DCs. Heighten spell is also great, especially if you pair it as a favorite metamagic.

from Act 2 start...
robe of inevitability +2 spell penetration.... from Woljif
covenant of the inheritor +2 spell penetration... unlock with storyteller

from Act 3 start...
goggles of pure sight +1 spell penetration... from jewelry trader
ring of pyromania +2 spell penetration... from Arsinoe (priest in Drezen)

all those stack with each other... covenant just doesnt show on the spellbook as stacking... but it does stack... so start of Act 3 you can have a total of +7 to spell penetration... and having spell penetration and greater spell penetration would give you a +4 total..... so combined +11 to spell penetration... and you are probably level 10 at least by Act 3 so that means you'd be sitting at +21 to spell penetration before leaving Drezen....

Again, you miss the point. If you want your spells to work you have no choice but to go that route.

[Angelis Mortis]

Originally posted by reidj062:

Originally posted by Soul:

from Act 2 start...
robe of inevitability +2 spell penetration.... from Woljif
covenant of the inheritor +2 spell penetration... unlock with storyteller

from Act 3 start...
goggles of pure sight +1 spell penetration... from jewelry trader
ring of pyromania +2 spell penetration... from Arsinoe (priest in Drezen)

all those stack with each other... covenant just doesnt show on the spellbook as stacking... but it does stack... so start of Act 3 you can have a total of +7 to spell penetration... and having spell penetration and greater spell penetration would give you a +4 total..... so combined +11 to spell penetration... and you are probably level 10 at least by Act 3 so that means you'd be sitting at +21 to spell penetration before leaving Drezen....

The problem however, is that this is based on knowing where every item that boosts penetration is within the game and min-maxing the crap out of things. Feat-wise, you're also losing opportunities to boost other things like defensive abilities (ie- toughness, dodge).

WOTR is exhausting because it basically demands you design your character in a spreadsheet ahead of time, not to mention the 5 whole minutes you spend buffing before each fight, and the 1-2 minutes inspecting each enemy combatant to figure out which 32 spells they are randomly immune to.

this guy gets it

[Angelis Mortis]

Originally posted by Ishan451:

I would say that is more of a build issue than actually a problem with Magic Users.

See that's my point. You have to build it a certain way, which limits a ton of other choices you could use to make your character more interesting. I bet if we get everyone to post their magic user builds 99% would have the same exact stack of SR debuffs. That's not a choice. You're forced into it because it's too debilitating otherwise

[Uzkin]

Originally posted by Angelis Mortis:

Originally posted by Uzkin:

There are enough ways to overcome SR in the game - feats, gear, mythic abilities, etc.

Spell resistance is fine as it is.

That's my point though. It forces you to take that route in order to overcome it which really limits options.

Yeah, if you don't focus on overcoming enemy SR then this limits your ability to overcome enemy SR. Which is as it should be -- it's no different from the melee having to focus on AB.

If you want your char to be good at X then you have to use a build that supports X.

"I spent all my fighter's feats on knowledge/lore skill foci and now I cannot hit Playful Darkness. :(( "

[Ishan451]

Originally posted by Angelis Mortis:

See that's my point. You have to build it a certain way, which limits a ton of other choices you could use to make your character more interesting.

What choices? By level 13 i started to invest in pointless School specialisations, because i didn't know what else to do with the Feats. There are like 4 feets you need for your caster.

Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Point Blank and Precise Shot. The later two you need to land touch ranged spells into melee without the -4 to hit. Greater Spell Penetration gives you +4 on your Spell Penetration (if its a full caster you might want to add one Mythic Feat to Spell Penetration (Mythic) to this list).

If you properly handle the right attributes for your Caster it shouldn't be an issue anymore.

That is 5 feats for a Character whose speciality is casting spells. Complaining about this is like complaining about the need to learn Weapon Focus and Melee Combat talents to make Martial Classes useful and able to hit something.

My MC is a hybrid class and still easily was able to get all the Spell casting feats and Melee Feats to do both reasonable. Sure, thanks to the gear he isn't rocking the Spell Penetration of Ember, who is a pure mage for me, but he still has more Spell Penetration than Sosiel and still is able to afford Weapon Finess, Combat Reflexes and a bunch of other Martial Feats. Is he as good at Martial stuff as Greybor or Seelah? No, but that is why my MC is a hybrid.

I really don't see where you are missing "interesting" options. I can do all this and stiff take some of the recommended feats. And mind you, we can argue about you actually needing those 4 feats or if you could not just go just with Spell Penetration and Spell Penetration (Mythic) instead.

Originally posted by Angelis Mortis:

I bet if we get everyone to post their magic user builds 99% would have the same exact stack of SR debuffs. That's not a choice. You're forced into it because it's too debilitating otherwise

And if we get everyone to post their martial builds you will see the same 4-5 core feats as well. That is how Pathfinder works.

Also, seriously, what other feats would you pick? Not like 2-3 mandatory feats to make your character better at their job, of a total of at least 10 feats is such a huge loss. Especially not if those feats make the character better at the thing they should be doing.

If you want to turn your Witch into a Melee tank, then maybe you shouldn't level Witch if you want a Melee Tank.