Why is the Precise Shot penalty applying to spells?

[Timrod]

I was a Pathfinder Society GM for five years. I know how Precise Shot works. I'd like to quote the rulebook:

"Precise Shot: You can THROW or SHOOT RANGED WEAPONS at an opponent ENGAGED IN MELEE without taking the standard -4 penalty on your attack roll."

Now, I might not have the greatest eyesight, but I don't see the word "Spell" in there anywhere. In fact, in the five years I played the tabletop game, not once, even with the most grognard of GMs, did anyone ever believe that the Precise Shot penalty applied to spells. The entire point is that doesn't make sense because it would force Wizards and Sorcerers to take feats they probably don't even qualify for.

Yet for some reason, in this game, casters take a -4 penalty to hit when casting in combat AT ALL, even against enemies that are not engaged in melee. Did anyone actually read the rulebook?

[.//slayer]

The description of the ray spells in the Pathfinder CRD says:

Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something.

The part "as if using a ranged weapon" says to me that the attack roll should also be calculated as if for a ranged weapon.

Not to mention that the Paizo FAQ confirms that you can take weapon specialization[paizo.com] to improve your ray attack rolls, which, again, firmly puts them in a weapons category.

As long as rays are considered range weapons, Precise Shot does not need to have a specific wording about spells, since it already includes ranged weapons in the description.

Edit: Thank you for an award!

[hilburnashua]

Thumbs up on everything .//slayer said. Weapon focus feat itself says "Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat." in the CRB.

Something that a Society DM should be aware of.

[Soul]

I had a DM one time that had probably decades of experience decide that the wording of glitterdust meant that it caused permanent blindness.... I was playing a sorcerer in his campaign... so I just said alright and took it next level and decided to spam it on everything he had in a dungeon crawl....

it was hilarious.... needless to say halfway through the dungeon he decided that he wanted to reverse course on his ruling.... when i'd blind every single enemy... just casting glitterdust in every room...

[Timrod]

Originally posted by .//slayer:

The description of the ray spells in the Pathfinder CRD says:

Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something.

The part "as if using a ranged weapon" says to me that the attack roll should also be calculated as if for a ranged weapon.

Not to mention that the Paizo FAQ confirms that you can take weapon specialization[paizo.com] to improve your ray attack rolls, which, again, firmly puts them in a weapons category.

As long as rays are considered range weapons, Precise Shot does not need to have a specific wording about spells, since it already includes ranged weapons in the description.

Keyword here is "as if". That phrase does not in any way state that spells are weapons, especially non-ray spells. In fact, it directly implies the opposite: spells are NOT weapons, but some spells may be fired in a similar manner. Even in the most liberal possible reading of that statement, that would mean it does not apply to non-ray spells, but it does. In fact, the game also applies it to enemies who are not in melee combat.

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

Thumbs up on everything .//slayer said. Weapon focus feat itself says "Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat." in the CRB.

Something that a Society DM should be aware of.

Key phrase is "for purposes of this feat". Under your reading, a grapple would be considered a weapon, which makes absolutely no sense.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Timrod:

Originally posted by .//slayer:

The description of the ray spells in the Pathfinder CRD says:



The part "as if using a ranged weapon" says to me that the attack roll should also be calculated as if for a ranged weapon.

Not to mention that the Paizo FAQ confirms that you can take weapon specialization[paizo.com] to improve your ray attack rolls, which, again, firmly puts them in a weapons category.

As long as rays are considered range weapons, Precise Shot does not need to have a specific wording about spells, since it already includes ranged weapons in the description.

Keyword here is "as if". That phrase does not in any way state that spells are weapons, especially non-ray spells. In fact, it directly implies the opposite: spells are NOT weapons, but some spells may be fired in a similar manner. Even in the most liberal possible reading of that statement, that would mean it does not apply to non-ray spells, but it does. In fact, the game also applies it to enemies who are not in melee combat.

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

Thumbs up on everything .//slayer said. Weapon focus feat itself says "Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat." in the CRB.

Something that a Society DM should be aware of.

Key phrase is "for purposes of this feat". Under your reading, a grapple would be considered a weapon, which makes absolutely no sense.

just a quick google search of DnD 3.5 precise shot and spells shows that ppl were discussing this stuff back in 2009... that you need to have both precise shot and point blank shot in order to not take the firing into melee penalty... and pathfinder 1st edition is based off of dnd 3.5....

[Azure]

Very much a case of RAI ~ which is is often where things go awry since interpretations vary but here we have a clear cut thing that Works as it does and has done for a Long time in the rules set and the game manages to replicate that well. What you have experienced in "real life games" is moot

[.//slayer]

Originally posted by Timrod:

Keyword here is "as if". That phrase does not in any way state that spells are weapons, especially non-ray spells. In fact, it directly implies the opposite: spells are NOT weapons, but some spells may be fired in a similar manner. Even in the most liberal possible reading of that statement, that would mean it does not apply to non-ray spells, but it does. In fact, the game also applies it to enemies who are not in melee combat.

The spell is not a weapon, of course, but the ray itself counts as one. The wording could have been better, that's for sure - and I've seen this exact debate going back over a decade ago, as Soul rightfully mentioned.

But regardless of that - you say that the game applies the penalty when targeting enemies who are not in melee combat, and this has not been my experience at all. Are you sure this is what's happening? For instance, it could've been a particular crinkle of real-time combat, where an enemy has moved away from an attacking party, but is still considered to be engaged in melee for the rest of the round.

[ayrtep]

Yes. When you start your wizard/sorcerer you should decide if you are rays or not.

Import to note that direct damage rays require a to hit roll and no DC check, while not ray direct damage spells require a DC check but no to hit roll. So its important to specialise.

Either 1) If rays then you need point blank and precise shot, weapon focus ray, improved critical ray, point blank master ray and such like. Ignore DC. Have high dex. Consider 10 Eldritch knight levels and/or Loremaster (for combat feats).

Or 2) If going for AOE and similar spells, take all the Spell focus feats and mythic spell arsenal. Get your DC save as high as possible. Ignore to hit, focus on Int only.

Thanks @Soul fixed typo

[Soul]

Originally posted by ayrtep:

Yes. When you start your wizard/sorcerer you should decide if you are rays or not.

Import to note that direct damage rays require a to hit roll and no DLC check, while not ray direct damage spells require a DLC check but no to hit roll. So its important to specialise.

Either 1) If rays then you need point blank and precise shot, weapon focus ray, improved critical ray, point blank master ray and such like. Ignore DLC. Have high dex. Consider 10 Eldritch knight levels and/or Loremaster (for combat feats).

Or 2) If going for AOE and similar spells, take all the Spell focus feats and mythic spell arsenal. Get your DLC save as high as possible. Ignore to hit, focus on Int only.

you know... its actually "DC" for "difficulty class".... you keep calling it DLC and I cant stop laughing... like its a new pay to win feature.... "enemies keep making their saves?... buy our DLC...."

[reidj062]

Prime Owlcat material, that. There's this one WOTR wiki that keeps saying DD's instead of DCs, and I'm constantly like "no, DD is for rogues, DC is for casters."

[Sankhe]

https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9uxg

Originally posted by paizo:

In general, special abilities that require attack rolls benefit and suffer from all modifiers affecting attack rolls even if those modifiers mention weapon attack rolls (such as the penalty for firing into melee, the bonus on attack rolls from Point-Blank Shot and inspire courage, and the like), unless the spell specifically calls out that it doesn’t apply them (for instance spiritual weapon calls out that it isn’t affected by feats and combat actions, but it would still have to deal with cover, and firing into melee if ranged).

[Ishan451]

Originally posted by Timrod:

I was a Pathfinder Society GM for five years. I know how Precise Shot works.

Oh the irony.

Originally posted by Timrod:

Keyword here is "as if". That phrase does not in any way state that spells are weapons, especially non-ray spells.

Ahh, you are that guy. Reminds me of one of my players who wanted to play a Cleric of Ragathiel and then argued that Ragathiel wasn't chivalrous because chivalrous behavior wasn't included in Chivalry.

As if means you treat it.... as if using a ranged weapon. Which means all the ranged weapon rules apply.

https://legacy.aonprd.com/coreRulebook/magic.html

Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don't have to see the creature you're trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature at which you're aiming.

If a ray spell has a duration, it's the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists.

If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.