Trying to utilize Nenio

[igor140]

So, I've always found Nenio's personality fun and quirky, but due to how badly offensive spellcasting is nerfed in this game, I never really trusted her to be effective. Now that I understand the game mechanics (and how to abuse them) much better, I was going to have her be one of my main party members in this playthough.

So the problem that I'm running into is her absurdly low STR. I mean, it's ABYSMALLY bad. My MC is a dual-wielding bard/ slayer, so she's got good STR. Her "sister" (merc) is build very similarly... yet despite having two characters with 20+ STR, Nenio is weighing the party down, literally.

I recently gave her a belt that gives +2 to both STR and DEX, which is helping... but holy crap this is bad.

Also, I'm rather worried about when I get to enemies that deal STR damage... IIRC, there are enemy attacks attacks later on that deal an average of 3 STR damage with a single hit.. she wouldn't last two hits.

How do you address this, other than trying to keep enemies off her and giving her a belt?

[GunStarX]

Having a few animal companions in the party usually removes any issues with party weight limits. Eventually everyone gets +4 str from bulls strength, and much later she will get +6 from frightful aspect

[Silyon]

Nenio is a wizard. STR is their dump-stat. Why's it matter if she's low-strength?

I presume it's because of encumbrance and failing athletic checks to resist fatigue, because nothing in the Wizard's kit cares about STR in the slightest. In which case, there are two merchants that sell small and normal-sized Bags of Holding. First one's the Barkeep in the Defender's Heart, second one's the Quartermaster in Act 3. Getting and sitting on both of these means ~350 extra carrying capacity by themselves, and you can further increase that with classes/mythic paths that give Animal Companions.

As for fatigue, it's a -2 to STR and DEX, which doesn't impact how well she casts at all unless you're using her for Ray spells. Which Ember is better at, I've found. For Nenio, it's all about controlling the fight and supporting the party. Early on it's Grease and her Blinding ray ability, later on she's responsible for applying Haste/Slow and Phantasmal Webs. Could also build her into Enchantment for Confusion and Dominate spells later on, and even early a Hold Person can outright negate a difficult humanoid boss. Nenio doesn't do damage, she makes it easier and safer for everyone else to do damage.

[revan1229]

Originally posted by Silyon:

Nenio is a wizard. STR is their dump-stat. Why's it matter if she's low-strength?

I presume it's because of encumbrance and failing athletic checks to resist fatigue, because nothing in the Wizard's kit cares about STR in the slightest. In which case, there are two merchants that sell small and normal-sized Bags of Holding. First one's the Barkeep in the Defender's Heart, second one's the Quartermaster in Act 3. Getting and sitting on both of these means ~350 extra carrying capacity by themselves, and you can further increase that with classes/mythic paths that give Animal Companions.

As for fatigue, it's a -2 to STR and DEX, which doesn't impact how well she casts at all unless you're using her for Ray spells. Which Ember is better at, I've found. For Nenio, it's all about controlling the fight and supporting the party. Early on it's Grease and her Blinding ray ability, later on she's responsible for applying Haste/Slow and Phantasmal Webs. Could also build her into Enchantment for Confusion and Dominate spells later on, and even early a Hold Person can outright negate a difficult humanoid boss. Nenio doesn't do damage, she makes it easier and safer for everyone else to do damage.

I disagree with Ember being a better ray caster. Nenio is a prepared caster, so her Bolstered/Empowered rays don't take a full round. And not sure if this is still the case because I don't use her anymore, but she could get bonus stats from Master Shapeshifter.

[igor140]

Well, as I stated in my first post, my concern is for enemies that drain stats. Based upon previous experience, it seems quite likely she could be OHKO'd by most of the Act 5 general mobs; not because of HP damage (which can be healed easily) but because of STR damage (which cannot).

When I make merc wizards, I put their STR at 8, and as best I can tell, party encumbrance is (at least partially) quadratic, which means that the difference between 5 and 8 is significantly more than the difference between 8 and 11.

The pet idea would work for PARTY encumbrance, but not for her individual. As it stands, if she's NOT wearing a STR belt, she's over-encumbered simply by the gear she's wearing.

[GunStarX]

Never had her over encumbered with regular gear, or had an issue with strength draining in the late game. 🤷

[igor140]

Well if we're branching this into a Nenio vs Ember discussion... I will take Ember any day. Nenio isn't as limited as most prepared casters because of her crazy scrolls, but Ember ends up with more spell slots, more features that focus into her damage (presumably fire), and hexes.

Nenio gets scrolls on scrolls on scrolls-- and a greatly increased capacity to use them-- but she can still only use 5 per combat... and each one takes a full rest (or more) to create.

I'm using Nenio because I decided I wanted to use Nenio. I'm just trying to make it work, and prepare for known problems in the future.

[igor140]

Originally posted by GunStarX:

Never had her over encumbered with regular gear, or had an issue with strength draining in the late game. 🤷

Then teach me your ways, great master. I just finished Lost Chapel, and the succubi got her down to 1 STR... and those are the weak ones.

I had to finish the last couple battles with her entirely naked, out of spells, and casting every crappy "protection from alignment" scroll I had.

[revan1229]

Originally posted by igor140:

Well, as I stated in my first post, my concern is for enemies that drain stats. Based upon previous experience, it seems quite likely she could be OHKO'd by most of the Act 5 general mobs; not because of HP damage (which can be healed easily) but because of STR damage (which cannot).

When I make merc wizards, I put their STR at 8, and as best I can tell, party encumbrance is (at least partially) quadratic, which means that the difference between 5 and 8 is significantly more than the difference between 8 and 11.

The pet idea would work for PARTY encumbrance, but not for her individual. As it stands, if she's NOT wearing a STR belt, she's over-encumbered simply by the gear she's wearing.

Wizards don't usually rely on heavy gear...what is your Nenio wearing?

And I've never had issues with STR drain for casters in the late game. They are typically not anywhere near enemies that inflict this (and if they somehow are, Sosiel can help with that).

[revan1229]

Originally posted by igor140:

Well if we're branching this into a Nenio vs Ember discussion... I will take Ember any day. Nenio isn't as limited as most prepared casters because of her crazy scrolls, but Ember ends up with more spell slots, more features that focus into her damage (presumably fire), and hexes.

Nenio gets scrolls on scrolls on scrolls-- and a greatly increased capacity to use them-- but she can still only use 5 per combat... and each one takes a full rest (or more) to create.

I'm using Nenio because I decided I wanted to use Nenio. I'm just trying to make it work, and prepare for known problems in the future.

With Abundant Casting, which pretty much any caster wants, Nenio will have more than enough slots. And, as you said, scroll usage is a significant boon, given that you can a) craft scrolls, b) buy a ton of scrolls, and c) equip gear that boosts your CL when using scrolls.

For hexes, I'd rather take a Shaman (Metal Curse, Flame Curse, Hampering Hex, etc.) because of the enemies that are immune to mind-affecting effects. And for feats, Nenio actually gets more from being a Wizard.

[GunStarX]

It really just comes down to not letting threats get to your back line, and if they do stuff like mirror image and invisibility field should let you get her away from the action. As soon as you have greater enduring spells and level 4 spells you can run death ward to make you immune to the vast majority of ability drain enemies

[Frienby]

I like using her as an arcane trixter and just leaning into her utility function, then she doesnt overlap with Ember or compete with damage. Tho, even as a trixter, you can go hard into phantasmal killer and end up one-shotting difficult demons. She's too far away from the front lines to be hurt by draining enemies. If you are having a hard time with your front line keeping enemies back, I suggest giving your frontline combat expertise and utilizing greater attacks of opportunity so they are easily chased and killed before they can threaten your nerdy foxgirl.

[Silyon]

Originally posted by revan1229:

I disagree with Ember being a better ray caster. Nenio is a prepared caster, so her Bolstered/Empowered rays don't take a full round. And not sure if this is still the case because I don't use her anymore, but she could get bonus stats from Master Shapeshifter.

Metamagic rods are everywhere in this game (especially if you go spelunking in the isles) and don't increase the cast time for spontaneous casters. Being a witch, Ember can get the same kinds of buffs as Nenio, starts with Point-Blank and Precise shot, and has an extra inherent point of Dex to begin with. The Elf racial feats can also give her more spell penetration than most characters. Owlcat wants her to be your ray caster, you need to go in with Toybox to make her anything but.

Not to say Nenio can't also be a good Ray caster, but donating that many slots to damaging spells when there's so many buffs and CC options that none of the other party members get (Commander and mercs barred, ofc) seems like a waste.

[Frienby]

Originally posted by Silyon:

Metamagic rods are everywhere in this game (especially if you go spelunking in the isles) and don't increase the cast time for spontaneous casters. Being a witch, Ember can get the same kinds of buffs as Nenio, starts with Point-Blank and Precise shot, and has an extra inherent point of Dex to begin with. The Elf racial feats can also give her more spell penetration than most characters. Owlcat wants her to be your ray caster, you need to go in with Toybox to make her anything but.

Not to say Nenio can't also be a good Ray caster, but donating that many slots to damaging spells when there's so many buffs and CC options that none of the other party members get (Commander and mercs barred, ofc) seems like a waste.

Ember also starts off with feats suited to a ray caster, but you can easily make Nenio compete with sneak attack by dipping vivisectionist and going into arcane trixter. Nenio is a bit more bursty with that and takes more work to develop then Ember tho.

[igor140]

I took a couple levels of Vivisectionist, so I've got her in mythril light armor. It doesn't weigh much... but when her max carrying capacity is 30 Lbs, every little bit counts.

Because she's got the sneak attack dice, light armor, and a dagger, I've got her in my "middle" as opposed to all the way back. I normally have her stand back and use cantrips (because they still get sneak attack, even when only doing 1 damage) and scrolls, but occasionally I'll have her come forward to finish off an enemy, if I expect I can then move my front line forward a bit.

That was going according to plan in one of those fights against 10+ succubi/ incubi (I'm using "increased enemies" or whatever it is)... but I forgot about Magula. So my paladin, monk, and rogue flexed over to take that on, which left just the slayer and Nenio to take the brunt of the succubi. (Lann was way in the back, doing Lann things.)

Nenio's armor kept her alive just fine (She barely dipped below 50%), but she almost went down to the succbi level and stat draining.

SO! I'm now thinking of 20 hours from now, when every random demon I run across drains 3- 6 STR with every hit. Maybe that's just the risk I run with having her a "mid-fielder".

Maybe later, when spells are actually viable and I have more than two attack spells I'll drop her further back... but she was completely out of spell slots before making it UP the hill, and was relegating only to cantrips and scrolls on the much harder side of the mountain.

[Frienby]

I would definitely not have Nenio as a midfielder, but if I was, then maybe going for mythic archemage armor and false life with shield spell and mirror image/ blur would be a better route than light armor. I try to save all her strength capacity for quarterstaff (stat stick), rods and accessories.

Could also use someone else with pits/ walls to control the flow of that many enemies. Even early on, nenio gets access to all pits, tho the DC won't be great if you are going evocation for rays.