So, what *IS* Ember? (spoilers for her recruitment and early conversation)

[igor140]

I'm starting up my 4th playthrough, and I've just recruited her and gone through the initial conversation. I remember most of this from before, but I'm reminded of how WEIRD her whole backstory is.

She's "several centuries old" and doesn't know the name of her homeland, or her parents, OR HERSELF. I know that in DnD, elves mature notably slower than humans to account for their lore-breakingly long lifespans... but I assure you that my 2 yr old niece knows her name. So am I just woefully unfamiliar with Patherfind elven development? Certainly that can't be normal...

The other character who has forgotten their name has really good reasons for that. But Ember seems to remember most of her life... except where she came from and who she is.

Then there's the issue of Soot. In the earliest conversations Ember, the Commander, and the "narrator" all comment on the fact that Soot is not a normal crow; Soot is something unusual. I think it's a Religion check, but it's revealed (still in that initial conversation) that Soot is actually an aspect/ familiar/ embodiment/ whatever of one of the mot powerful Empyreal lords.

So one of the most powerful fey (that's correct, isn't it?) deities is watching over one little homeless 240 year old "child"... because it's fun?

Ember herself doesn't worship or trust the gods. She states that very clearly; she's listed as being Atheist; and she frequently decries the "good" gods in the same sentences as the "evil" ones... so why is this one particular god-- who Ember herself does not acknowledge, even by name-- care about her so much?

She refers to this god as "grandmother", and says that she was also the "Grandmother" of her father and grandfather, etc... so it's obviously not a direct blood relation. She also acknowledges Soot as an emissary (or whatever) from "grandmother".

Next is her whole manner of speech and whatnot. I'm not talking about her "everyone can be redeemed" thing (that's just adorable)... It's the way she talks about certain things and DOESN'T talk about other things make her seem extremely detached from the world; like she's an observer without understanding that she is an actual participant. It's the same kind of speech patterns usually used to convey that an individual is "other", or "alien", or "from outside".

If you've ever played the very old Xenosaga games (early 2000s), there's a character called "chaos" who talks in a somewhat less stilted way than Ember, but still occasionally says something that's just "off". This character is later revealed to actually be Jesus Christ, 18,000+ years later . That's the kind of "odd" that Ember comes across.

Then there's the whole burning incident. She never actually mentions WHY Hulrun though she was evil, but it is Hulrun... On the other hand, was there some incident that led to his conclusion? Also, that must have happened within the past 10ish years; Hulrun is human, and not prone to living "multiple centuries". Furthermore, several characters talk about how much Hulrun has changed... so chances are Ember's burning was within the past four or five years... right?

But then there's the fact that she survived. Her father died, "she cried"... at which point one of the knights jumped in the fire to save her, fought off his fellow guards, and let her free. That knight later died from his wounds... but she just lost a couple fingers...?

There are a lot of variables, but I actually HAVE pulled two different friends out of fires (I have really stupid friends). They were just campfires, not witch pyres... but still: they were FAR more badly burned than I was in both cases. (In neither case was anyone seriously injured... I think only one of them still has any permanent scarring, and it's minor.)

Point being: it must have been an INCREDIBLE fire for a grown man (her father) to be burned alive, and another to have been burned badly enough that he later died of his injuries. How, then, did she escape only missing a couple fingers?

Or is the implication that her "crying" was actually a spell ("trick"; either by her or by Soot/ "grandmother") that compelled the man to jump in and free her?

It's just too many weird things for there not to be something else going on...

THIS PART REALLY DOES HAVE SPOILERS FOR EMBER WELL INTO THE LATE GAME. SERIOUSLY, DON'T READ THIS UNLESS YOU HAVE FINISHED HER STORY THOUGH ACT 5 OR DON'T CARE ABOUT SPOILING IT

But the craziest part to me is that, given that setup from the beginning of Act 1... nothing is ever revealed. Her personal quests revolve around her preaching career. And while I think it's a pretty good story... the whole "one the most powerful fey deities lives in a shoebox at the end of my bed and consistently saves me from fires, demons, and having to emotionally process the tragedy in my life" is never brought up again.

So... is there more to this story that I'm missing?

[SomeGuy1]

For clarification, the Empyreal Lords are Good Outsiders (so celestials. Angels/Azata/Agathions/Archons), not fey.

https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Empyreal_lord

edit: and if Ember is referring to them as "grandmother", and its avatar is a crow... we're probably dealing with Andoletta, who is an Archon. LG outsider. Dwells in Heaven.

Also note that Empyreal Lords are not deities, though they are still powerful enough to grant clerics divine spells.

[igor140]

Ooooohhh!! Well, thank you for clarifying all of that.

Yes, the initial dialogue with Ember (once you first et back to the Defender) identifies Soot very specifically as Andoletta.

So would that be more on a level of having the Biblical archangel Michael sleeping in a shoebox at the foot of your bed...?

Also, does them being Empyreal lords instead make any more sense as to why/ what Ember is? Is this just a lore thing I'm not understanding?

[steventirey]

All witches have a pact with some otherworldly being. That power is drawn through a familiar, which is the source of the witches magic. In other words, Ember is the same as literally every other witch in Golarian. With the exception of being mentally scared and a little loopy.

Some gain power through study, some through devotion, others through blood, but the witch gains power from her communion with the unknown. Generally feared and misunderstood, the witch draws her magic from a pact made with an otherworldly power. Communing with that source, using her familiar as a conduit, the witch gains not only a host of spells, but a number of strange abilities known as hexes. As a witch grows in power, she might learn about the source of her magic, but some remain blissfully unaware. Some are even afraid of that source, fearful of what it might be or where its true purposes lie.

Having some powerful connection to an unknown force would be special in our world, but is rather mundane in a Pathfinder/D&D setting. Once you boil it down enough, and in very simple terms, witches are more or less just another type of cleric. Their patron just isn't necessarily a god.

[Schlumpsha]

Originally posted by igor140:

So, what *IS* Ember?

Annoying.

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by Schlumpsha:

Originally posted by igor140:

So, what *IS* Ember?

Annoying.

And also incredibly poorly written.

The two of these essentially fully explain her character.

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by igor140:

Then there's the whole burning incident. She never actually mentions WHY Hulrun though she was evil, but it is Hulrun... On the other hand, was there some incident that led to his conclusion? Also, that must have happened within the past 10ish years; Hulrun is human, and not prone to living "multiple centuries". Furthermore, several characters talk about how much Hulrun has changed... so chances are Ember's burning was within the past four or five years... right?

But then there's the fact that she survived. Her father died, "she cried"... at which point one of the knights jumped in the fire to save her, fought off his fellow guards, and let her free. That knight later died from his wounds... but she just lost a couple fingers...?

There are a lot of variables, but I actually HAVE pulled two different friends out of fires (I have really stupid friends). They were just campfires, not witch pyres... but still: they were FAR more badly burned than I was in both cases. (In neither case was anyone seriously injured... I think only one of them still has any permanent scarring, and it's minor.)

Point being: it must have been an INCREDIBLE fire for a grown man (her father) to be burned alive, and another to have been burned badly enough that he later died of his injuries. How, then, did she escape only missing a couple fingers?

Or is the implication that her "crying" was actually a spell ("trick"; either by her or by Soot/ "grandmother") that compelled the man to jump in and free her?

It's just too many weird things for there not to be something else going on...

I'd put money on her having originally been written as someone possessed by a demon who's story role was to corrupt those around her (and be a secret villain in the party similar to Wenduag) but then she went through a massive yet hasty rewrite late in development that completely changed her character.

A nice example is how she has absolutely zero skill or knowledge beyond the powers granted to her by Andolletta. Which she supposedly didn't have before the fire incident. So why did her father bring her, a grown woman at the time, to the middle of a warzone? Makes absolutely zero sense in the context of the story as it was released but makes perfect sense if her father was a cultist trying to help her infiltrate the crusades.

Or as another one that really bothers me is that the whole fire scenario as she describes it likely never even happened as Hulrun has no recollection of it, despite the fact he was supposedly there and the fact that one of his guards not only trying to free the witch but then succeeding in freeing her and then both of them getting away should have been high profile enough to stick in his memory.

[igor140]

I am learning a lot : )

So PF witches are similar-ish to DnD warlocks?

I guess that explains Soot and "grandmother"... are we then supposed to assume that Ember is kind of oblivious about the degree to which her patron intervenes her behalf...?

If so... my opinion of Ember is likely falling significantly. I was completely in support of her perspective to not trust or rely on the gods too much, and instead move forward as individuals; it reminds me of the original humanists.

But if the situation is now that she's saying all this WHILE SIGNIFICANTLY BENEFITING from a deity/ outside being...?

That would be like learning that David Hume was devoutly Catholic or something.

That's like all the rich white people I went to high school with staging a walkout of the school because the tuition was high enough that it discriminated against the less fortunate... but having to leave by 4:30 to catch a plane to the Bahamas to stay on daddy's yacht for the week. (That... literally happened.)

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by igor140:

But if the situation is now that she's saying all this WHILE SIGNIFICANTLY BENEFITING from a deity/ outside being...?

A lot of the characters in this game are wild hypocrites. To the point where I am not entirely sure that the owlcat writing staff understood that what they were writing was hypocrisy, which makes me deeply concerned about what kinds of people they are.

Another example is how they have the god of truth and justice lie not only to the people in general but to her own herald because you were "useful". That is 100% not what the god of truth or justice would do. And you find this out in a conversation where she tries to tell you that no mortal should have divine powers. This is despite the fact she herself is a mortal who gained divine powers and the god she followed as a mortal was also a mortal who gained divine powers. Ridiculous.

[igor140]

I'd put money on her having originally been written as someone possessed by a demon who's story role was to corrupt those around her (and be a secret villain in the party similar to Wenduag) but then she went through a massive yet hasty rewrite late in development that completely changed her character.

A nice example is how she has absolutely zero skill or knowledge beyond the powers granted to her by Andolletta. Which she supposedly didn't have before the fire incident. So why did her father bring her, a grown woman at the time, to the middle of a warzone? Makes absolutely zero sense in the context of the story as it was released but makes perfect sense if her father was a cultist trying to help her infiltrate the crusades.

Or as another one that really bothers me is that the whole fire scenario as she describes it likely never even happened as Hulrun has no recollection of it, despite the fact he was supposedly there and the fact that one of his guards not only trying to free the witch but then succeeding in freeing her and then both of them getting away should have been high profile enough to stick in his memory.

That... unfortunately makes a lot of sense : /

I was kind of hoping that wouldn't be the answer, and that I had just missed some dialogue/ lore somewhere. (Which, it seems I did... just nothing that really answered the question.)

Another theory that I had had at one point is that she WAS a god/ deity/ outside being herself (not necessarily possessed by a demon)... basically exactly what happened in Xenosaga. but I think when they realized some of the stuff that would have to happen in Act 5 and/ or the existence of Storyteller, they realized there would be too many "beings" running around when they very specifically are not supposed to. So they pulled the plug on that idea... which is a shame : /

[igor140]

Originally posted by Gracey Face:

Originally posted by igor140:

But if the situation is now that she's saying all this WHILE SIGNIFICANTLY BENEFITING from a deity/ outside being...?

A lot of the characters in this game are wild hypocrites. To the point where I am not entirely sure that the owlcat writing staff understood that what they were writing was hypocrisy, which makes me deeply concerned about what kinds of people they are.

Another example is how they have the god of truth and justice lie not only to the people in general but to her own herald because you were "useful". That is 100% not what the god of truth or justice would do. And you find this out in a conversation where she tries to tell you that no mortal should have divine powers. This is despite the fact she herself is a mortal who gained divine powers and the god she followed as a mortal was also a mortal who gained divine powers. Ridiculous.

Well damn, you're just ripping apart my appreciation for the story of this game : )

But I do completely agree with you...

Maybe everyone in Golarion is just inconsistent and insane... Maybe Camellia is the only sane one.

Now, that said, I thought this scenario (as well as Kingmaker) were written by Paizo? Aren't there PnP versions of both KM and WotR? How much of the writing did Owlcat do...?

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by igor140:

Now, that said, I thought this scenario (as well as Kingmaker) were written by Paizo? Aren't there PnP versions of both KM and WotR? How much of the writing did Owlcat do...?

Paizo's writing isn't any better than owlcat's. That being said the basis for these games are adventure paths released by Paizo, but Owlcat added a bunch of extra story, content and characters on top, Ember being one of those.

Originally posted by igor140:

I know that in DnD, elves mature notably slower than humans to account for their lore-breakingly long lifespans... but I assure you that my 2 yr old niece knows her name. So am I just woefully unfamiliar with Patherfind elven development? Certainly that can't be normal...

One thing I almost forgot to mention is that while it has never been specifically laid out, elves do not actually mature more slowly than humans. This was "retconned" in like 2nd edition or so in order to prevent the 50 year old babies in diapers ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ all over the place problem with elves and other similar species. What actually happens now is that elves mature mentally and physically at the same rough rate as humans, but the additional time spent in "childhood" is explained away as them undergoing higher education and greater cultural learning.

There's even a subset of elves, I think in the forgotten realms setting, who've lost out on this higher education due to being raised by humans and they're considered outcast troglodytes by "true elves". I think their name is "The Forlorn" or something along those lines.

Still elves and other long lived species just don't really work in the setting.

[mk11]

Originally posted by igor140:

Maybe everyone in Golarion is just inconsistent and insane... Maybe Camellia is the only sane one.

They are fighting demonic hordes. They can never really rest because demons can teleport in at any time. They all have PTSD and mental health issues.

[Immortal Reaver]

Ember "is" a century old. Which for elves is cca 15 years old.
She also was born at same time as Worldwound opened and her father took it as 'divine sign" so he took her there when she was in age equal to 7-8 years old. Her father was stupid.
And Hurlun had 48 years to forget one of the witches he did not manage to burn, in that time I believe he definetly can forget.

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by Immortal Reaver:

Ember "is" a century old. Which for elves is cca 15 years old.
She also was born at same time as Worldwound opened and her father took it as 'divine sign" so he took her there when she was in age equal to 7-8 years old. Her father was stupid.
And Hurlun had 48 years to forget one of the witches he did not manage to burn, in that time I believe he definetly can forget.

Ember is 120 years old (I think 126 specifically). Which since an average lifespan for an elf is ~500 years would make her 18 going by an average human lifespan of 70 years. Except it isn't exactly 1:1 as it is said that 175 years old for an elf is the equivalent of 35 years old for a human, which would then make 126 the equivalent of 25 years old.

The fire was described as having happened roughly a decade or so earlier and hulrun's human nature puts a pretty hard limit on it so she wasn't "7-8", she'd have been the equivalent of ~17 or ~24 depending on how your reckon it.

And no, the idea of Hulrun forgetting something so significant is ridiculous. Keep in mind that it wouldn't just end with her escaping the fire, there'd be a massive manhunt, internal measures to see how and why the traitorous inquisitor helped her and to eliminate it in the future. It'd be a massive thing that took years to resolve.

[Schlumpsha]

Originally posted by Gracey Face:

One thing I almost forgot to mention is that while it has never been specifically laid out, elves do not actually mature more slowly than humans. This was "retconned" in like 2nd edition or so in order to prevent the 50 year old babies in diapers ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ all over the place problem with elves and other similar species. What actually happens now is that elves mature mentally and physically at the same rough rate as humans, but the additional time spent in "childhood" is explained away as them undergoing higher education and greater cultural learning.

WotR still operates with the racial age progressions of 1st edition in mind, not the 2nd one. Meaning a 55 year old elf is both physically and mentally identical to a 8 year old human youth, as per the young character rules from Pathfinder's Ultimate Campaign rulebook.