Deliverer vs Demonslayer

[Brian]

What do you think of these two classes match against each other? They seem fairly close (I'm going for a dual-scimitar with fear-centered feats). Seems like Deliverer would be more pure dps and Demonslayer would be more versatile but not as lethal. Which do you think would be more interesting/fun?

[hilburnashua]

But if you are going to be dual wielding 2 handed scimitars you know those are not light weapons so you are going to be taking a -4 on your attacks, not -2.

[Chan]

Mutagen warrior is the choice of course. Always mutagen warrior.

[hilburnashua]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von fox5s:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Brian:

Wait seriously? That has to be a bug, no?

Nope, working as Owlcat intended. And missing prereqs doesn't disable Feats either. They also don't include the entire Feat chain in the prereqs.

In some of the old guides, for example, they would skip Dodge and pickup Crane style using Monk to avoid prereqs (because they had a 7 Dex). Then continue the feat chain and come back later and pick up Dodge when they had the items for it.

Which wasn't even strictly necessary since none of the subsequent feats in that chain checked your Dex again. If you picked up Dodge with that Monk level you could just go down the Crane Style line of Feats with no issues. But that's a tangent for another day.

EDIT: It might even be Paizo intended. It's just that you would lose access to the whole Feat chain if your Dex dipped below certain points which does not happen in WotR that I'm aware of.

The case of Crane Style is because the monk class give it as an option and allows you to bypass the normal requirements. Similar situation with rangers being able to take Improved Precise Shot at level six despite not having a BaB of +11 at that point.

There is at least one feat that I know of that does care about prerequites in order to work. Dazzling Display. I had built a character and took an option that gave me Dazzling Display but I didn't have a Weapon Focus feat. And the Dazzling Display didn't work because of that.

[Gracey Face]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Brian:

Honestly, that seems less egregious to me (similar to how you can get dual wielding feats with 10 Dex via ranger/slayer). But the items thing blows my mind. That should absolutely not be possible. It's like the very definition of an exploit. The difference between you getting the character progression you want or not comes down to if you just happen to be wearing a certain belt? Ludicrous.

It doesn't seem like it was intended, as they never gave any specific rules for it, but it's such an obvious thing that people did it and ended up asking about it.

Even though it was never officially FAQed as far as I am aware the lead game designer (Jason Bulmahn) came out and said that "Generally you need to permanently have the stat or feat prerequisites to select another feat, however in the case of magical items granting stat bonuses the stat bonus can count towards prerequisites as long as it is worn full time."
(I assume that by full time he means never removed.)

It's janky, but it's the kind of thing that ends up happening with rulesets as complex as pathfinder. Interactions which seem like they should have been obvious end up getting overlooked. In a lot of ways pathfinder isn't even that bad. Shadowrun for example where entire supplements simply can't be properly played because they don't give you a full ruleset for how the supplement creatures are able to interact with the world.

[Moo]

The text for dazzling display does say when you use your favored weapon. So if you were wielding a non-favored weapon, it won't trigger.

[GunStarX]

I wouldn't waste feats going for dreadful carnage, as soon as your casters hit level 15 they can have frightful aspect up permanently (with enduring spells). All you need is shatter defenses for all of your damage dealers at that point.

Demonslayer is very OP, but I wouldn't want to take the penalty for dual scimitars

[Brian]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Immortal Reaver:

Bonuses lasting more than day working for feats is as in PnP intended by Paizo.

But in PnP you wouldn't get so much powerful magical items and neither so many of them. You would get Belt +4 to 1 stat and then it would be later in game.

I’m fairly certain this isn’t true in Pathfinder 2nd edition.

[Brian]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von GunStarX:

I wouldn't waste feats going for dreadful carnage, as soon as your casters hit level 15 they can have frightful aspect up permanently (with enduring spells). All you need is shatter defenses for all of your damage dealers at that point.

Demonslayer is very OP, but I wouldn't want to take the penalty for dual scimitars

Can always put a shortsword I’m my offhand. But yeah, you’re probably right.

[Immortal Reaver]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Brian:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Immortal Reaver:

Bonuses lasting more than day working for feats is as in PnP intended by Paizo.

But in PnP you wouldn't get so much powerful magical items and neither so many of them. You would get Belt +4 to 1 stat and then it would be later in game.

I’m fairly certain this isn’t true in Pathfinder 2nd edition.

This 1E game so if it is not working in 2E it does not matter.

[Brian]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Immortal Reaver:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Brian:

I’m fairly certain this isn’t true in Pathfinder 2nd edition.

This 1E game so if it is not working in 2E it does not matter.

Yeah I know I'm just saying I think if the Paizo devs used to be cool with it, I don't think they are now.

[Immortal Reaver]

Well devs changed. P2E was made people who made 4E DnD, while P1E was made by people who liked 3.5E DnD.

[GunStarX]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Brian:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von GunStarX:

I wouldn't waste feats going for dreadful carnage, as soon as your casters hit level 15 they can have frightful aspect up permanently (with enduring spells). All you need is shatter defenses for all of your damage dealers at that point.

Demonslayer is very OP, but I wouldn't want to take the penalty for dual scimitars

Can always put a shortsword I’m my offhand. But yeah, you’re probably right.

Dagger is a good one since the hasty eradicator gives you +2 off hand attacks. That also kind of ties into one of the best things ranger has over slayer, the animal. You can ride a horse with legendary proportions, giving you a full attack every round with the most OP size buffs (plus lead blades giving you and extra weapon size die).

[fox5s]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von hilburnashua:

The case of Crane Style is because the monk class give it as an option and allows you to bypass the normal requirements. Similar situation with rangers being able to take Improved Precise Shot at level six despite not having a BaB of +11 at that point.

You are correct. But I may not have been clear. In PnP, most Feat chains require all the previous feats in the chain as prereqs (and usually stat requirements) and you lose access to the whole chain if you lose access to any Feat.

So, if you have used Monk to bypass prereqs for Crane style, you would have to go back and get Dodge before you could pick up Crane Wing and Crane Riposte. And if you lost enough Dex to to lose access to Dodge, it would cause a cascading failure that would cause you to lose access to Crane Wing and Crane Riposte.

This can be a problem when relying items to qualify for Feats. It gives you a new vulnerability that can be attacked. IIRC a tageted Dispel magic (or possibly Greater) can turn off an item for a few rounds in key situations. Or, more likely, you have to be extra careful against ability damage. Antimagic fields are also a problem but are rare enough that they aren't totally worth mentioning.

None of this applies to WotR. Losing prereqs at any time do not disable your Feats. In the Crane Style example, a monk with 7 Dex can pick up Dodge by equiping a +6 item for long enough to level up. Then remove the item to no ill effect. Or could skip the prereqs for Dodge instead and pick up the Crane Style line unimpeded by items at all.

[xunlaiAgent]

I gave Demonslayer levels to Lann. It is pretty nice, especially since you can partially share the bonuses to your party.