Are meta magic's feats worth it?

[Malaficus Shaikan]

I have this nasty habbit of getting every single meta magic on my wizard.
Because wizard.

Now everyone and there mother tells me having a universalist wizard that knows every spell in the game is bad.

So is meta magic worth it?
If not what kind of wizard lich combo do you suggest for a core last azatine(iron man) mode?
Are sorcerors superior to wizards?

[Stiven]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

Now everyone and there mother tells me having a universalist wizard that knows every spell in the game is bad.

Spit in their faces, then. In this specific game universalist might be the most usefull class, because your lich/angel char will have like 10-16 spells per tier with epic feats anyways, and those extra 1-2 spell slots is not as usefull, because lich spells not counts as "necromancy" spells for spell slots.

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

So is meta magic worth it?

Yes.

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

Are sorcerors superior to wizards?

It's a meme. The only usefull thing about sorc for lich is cha to hp bonus, if for some reason you plan on tanking, and your daily +1000 bonus hp from feast spell, is just not enought for you. But that about it

[Lywelyn]

i had a blast with my sorcerer and metamagic.

instant lightining strike is funny

[Kel'Ithra]

Even my magus enjoyed it, but then again they get it for free via their arcana's. But anything that cast spells, you want to metamagic them. Empower, Maximise, extend, are some that come to mind, even Bolster can be useful and you can combine some of them.

[Soul]

lol... I pretty much exclusively play crossblooded sorcerer.....

are they superior to wizards.... yes and no.... depends on the player..... a GOOD wizard is someone who can prepare for any encounter with their access to so many spells.... a GOOD sorcerer has to rely on their limited spells known and takiing metamagics like crazy makes them more effective....

for example.... as a sorcerer I pick... selective, bolster, empower, maximize, heighten, extend....
so while early game my blaster sorcerer is lacking spell pen I learn snowball as second 1st level spell (grease is first :P... with selective spell by level 4 I can create selective grease and bolstered snowball)...

applying metamagics... and I can do this with snowball.... without favorite metamagics...
level 1 snowball.... level 2 snowball bolstered.... level 3 snowball empowered.... level 4 snowball maximized.... level 5 snowball bolstered maximized... level 6 snowball bolstered, empowered maximized.... and so on with heighten.... and with abundant casting line you'd be able to cast base 6 as a sorcerer and extra 4 with abundant so 10 spells per level.... if I choose to I could cast 90 snowballs lol.... or use metamagic heighten to all my spells like grease... glitterdust... haste... haste is level 3... heighten haste and instead of just level 3 slots and only 10 times i'd have 70 hastes possible....

and with favorite metamagics like bolster, empowered, and maximize combined.... you can make it more crazy by decreasing it enough that level 6 spell chain lightning or hellfire ray could be cut down enough to have it bolstered, empowered, and maximized to a level 9 spell.... which normally could only be maximized....

point is... wizards are more "versatile" I think... if you know what your doing you can prepare for any situation.... and in that case wizards are "superior" in my book.... but sorcerers I think are more of the "universalists".... they try to pick the spells that are good and with metamagics are more far more effective for doing that... for example if your running around a dungeon and end up getting dispelled on your party and resist energy communal is removed from everyone... a wizard would have to save up on spell slots dedicated to replacing buffs like that and lower their damage output by not having damage spells saved.... a sorcerer can learn resist energy communal and like I showed earlier just reapply it all day pretty much... so with metamagics as long as sorcerers have spells available they can take what they have and always have the option to buff... damage... or CC... without having to sacrifice for one or the other like wizards have to....

also even though my sorcerer becomes an evocation spell focus down the road... picking up snowball early on with it being a conjuration spell is still good... just cause its 5d6 damage with no spell resistance and the only save is staggered condition for one round... with ascendant element as first pick mythic feat choice and one dragon and elemental bloodline and gloves of the neophyte you can buy from vendor in act 1.... just a level 11 sorcerer can make that 5d6 into a 5d6 + 10 through gloves and one bloodline... if I used bolstered and maximize it would bring it to a level 5 spell making it do 30 + 20 = 50 damage with no spell resistance check... plus it has a chance to stagger....

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

I have this nasty habbit of getting every single meta magic on my wizard.
Because wizard.

Now everyone and there mother tells me having a universalist wizard that knows every spell in the game is bad.

So is meta magic worth it?
If not what kind of wizard lich combo do you suggest for a core last azatine(iron man) mode?
Are sorcerors superior to wizards?

Yes, they are very much worth it even if it means you have to sacrifice spell DC to get them. However, this does not mean that every spellcaster should get all the metamagic feats, you only take what you really need.

As an example of a Lich with metamagic feats, consider an ExploiterWizard15/Loremaster5 Lich who specializes in Evocation. This character gets the Sound Burst, Archon's Aura and Holy Word spells via Loremaster levels. The metamagic feats this character needs are Heighten (to cast Archon's Aura at highest DC by heightening it to spell level 9), Extend (to double the Daze/Stun duration of Ear-piercing Scream, Sound Burst, Shout, Ki Shout, Greater Shout and Stormbolts) and Selective (to make Sound Burst, Holy Word, Sirocco, Shout, Greater Shout and Sunburst safe for your party). Other metamagic feats including Bolster are not relevant, because this character does not care about dealing damage.

Thus, figure out what kind of spellcaster you want to play, what your main spells are going to be and pick only those metamagic feats you actually need.

[Raistlin]

Yes. Metamagic feats are good on casters. Specifically selective and bolster early on. There's some benefit from taking extend as well for the shorter buffs like haste. These work particularly well with the favorite metamagic mythic abilities since they only increase spell level by 1. Everything else can be done with metamagic rods. Heighten is also a good feat to take to fill your higher level spell slots.

Bolster is very nice to put on stuff like bone explosion, exsanguinate, siphon life, and feast of blood for quite a bit of extra damage and temporary hp. Selective domain of the hungry flesh is pretty nice as well. And with favorite metamagic bolster and selective you'll be able to put them on all of your spells for free. Then you can use heighten to fill your higher spell slots. You probably also want to grab the critical feats for rays as well.

Spontaneous casters are pretty nice in WotR due to merged spellbooks and several nice items. However, you'll be fine going either way. Especially on core. A good school to focus on at the beginning of the game is conjuration. If you're going lich, using expanded arsenal to add those feat bonuses to necromancy would be a good idea. Keep in mind there is a bug that adds the bonuses of all spell focus feats to expanded arsenal, including those from other school. Avoid taking the spell focus feats for other schools unless you don't mind using an exploit.

You can also do some cool stuff with enchantment or illusion, but I would recommend specializing in necromancy on lich and leaving enchantment and illusion to Ember and Nenio.

When I played a pure caster lich, I went spell focus + greater spell focus > conjuration, metamagic selective, metamagic bolster, metamagic heighten, improved critical (ray), school mastery > conjuration, expanded arsenal > necromancy. You'll have access to the very powerful lich spells by the end of act 2, you'll have 9th level (lich) spells by the end of act 3, and you'll have 10th level spells at the beginning of act 5 as a merged spellbook lich.

[Baldurs_Gate_2]

They are "bad" on spontanous casters, because it takes a full round to cast (6 seconds). Buffing with extended MM or spamming selective sirocco takes ages with that. Plain Wizard is just enough.

[Build]

Human - Wizard - School: Divination - Pickpocket - 10 / 16 / 12 / 19 / 10 / 10 - Hare Familiar

Level 1: Fast Learner / Improved Initiative / Spell Pen
Level 3: Greater Spell Pen
Level 5: Bolster MM / Heighten MM
Level 7: Selective MM
Level 9: Empower MM
Level 10: Spell Focus: Necro
Level 11: Skill Focus: Stealth
Level 13: Elemental Focus: Fire
Level 15: Stealthy / Greater Elemental Focus: Fire
Level 17: Greater Spell Focus: Necro
Level 19: Skill Focus: Persuasion
Level 20: Spell Focus: Necromancy

[Mythic]

MR1: Abdundant Casting
MR2: Improved Abudant Casting
MR3: Ascendent Element: Fire
MR4: Greater Abundant Casting
MR5: Last Stand (Very Important)
MR6: Spell Pen Mythic
MR7: Favorite MM Empower
MR8: Improved Initiative Mythic
MR9: Favorite MM Bolstered
MR10: Spell Focus: Necro Mythic

[BoogieMan]

I had almost every buff spell in the Wizard's arsenal at 24+ hour duration on my Wizard/Lich thanks to metamagic + MR feats. Even ones that are normally very short duration, it was pretty sweet.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Baldurs_Gate_2:

They are "bad" on spontanous casters, because it takes a full round to cast (6 seconds). Buffing with extended MM or spamming selective sirocco takes ages with that. Plain Wizard is just enough.

no its not... lol.... you can still take a swift action or 5-foot step.... when using metamagics in turn based mode.... it doesnt take one full round... just a move and standard action...

[Stiven]

Sorc also behind wizard in spell progression, for something like 1/3 of the game before your PC gets his banner. And trust me, those first levels is reaaally bad for "blaster sorc", Because when wizard will be able to cast fireball/controled fireball, sorc will only be able to spam level 2 spells. Also, not to flame tooo much.... but i honestly not sure why sorc is even a thing in wotr, aside from dip 1 level into it for dragons traits abuse on fire spells. Because if you want blaster you can:

1. Kinetics, pathfinder's carbon copy of dnd warlock with anime spices - can cast all day long, no limits. Someone says it crazy OP later on. Downside - cant cast Weird.
2. Thalassian Spec - if you want to blast, pick evocation and have same casts per day as Sorc, without gimping yourself with CHA stat. Donwnside - cant cast Weird.
3. Elemental Specialist - crazy OP in this game, can convert any elemental damage to his damage type. Downside - need to choose extra opposite schools.
4. Arcane Bomber - pure meme subclass for wizard, but IF you want blast as much as sorc, you can blast with bombs.

And also in this game you will have more than enough spells slots, which with highten feat, means you will never run out spell slots as a wizard.

[Stiven]

Originally posted by Soul:

Originally posted by Baldurs_Gate_2:

They are "bad" on spontanous casters, because it takes a full round to cast (6 seconds). Buffing with extended MM or spamming selective sirocco takes ages with that. Plain Wizard is just enough.

no its not... lol.... you can still take a swift action or 5-foot step.... when using metamagics in turn based mode.... it doesnt take one full round... just a move and standard action...

Yes it is. Unless they changed something.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Soul:

Originally posted by Baldurs_Gate_2:

They are "bad" on spontanous casters, because it takes a full round to cast (6 seconds). Buffing with extended MM or spamming selective sirocco takes ages with that. Plain Wizard is just enough.

no its not... lol.... you can still take a swift action or 5-foot step.... when using metamagics in turn based mode.... it doesnt take one full round... just a move and standard action...

5ft step may not be enough in many cases where you want to use auras or AoE spells centered on the caster. 5ft step limits your options on placing targeted AoE spells in optimal locations to ensure maximal coverage of enemies.

Sorcerers will always be the inferior casters compared to Wizards for multiple reasons:

1. School Power comes online only at level 15.
2. Metamagic spells are cast as full round actions.
3. Cannot combine Wizard school powers and Sorcerer bloodline arcanas as efficiently as Wizards can.
4. Cannot stack initiative the same way a Wizard can.

You can argue against these disadvantages individually, but their sum clearly shows the inferiority of Sorcerers.

[Raikon]

Well spontaneous casters do have some benefits. More spells per day, and less resting time. Some spells are quite powerful, and don't need metamagics. Like some angel ones, or purpose spells. Even wizards are envious of sorcerer's and usually partake in a single level.

Overall though, wizards are vastly superior to sorcerer's. However, I don't feel that wizards are superior to oracles, or a feyspeaker.l, ie charisma casters.

[Soul]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Originally posted by Soul:

no its not... lol.... you can still take a swift action or 5-foot step.... when using metamagics in turn based mode.... it doesnt take one full round... just a move and standard action...

5ft step may not be enough in many cases where you want to use auras or AoE spells centered on the caster. 5ft step limits your options on placing targeted AoE spells in optimal locations to ensure maximal coverage of enemies.

Sorcerers will always be the inferior casters compared to Wizards for multiple reasons:

1. School Power comes online only at level 15.
2. Metamagic spells are cast as full round actions.
3. Cannot combine Wizard school powers and Sorcerer bloodline arcanas as efficiently as Wizards can.
4. Cannot stack initiative the same way a Wizard can.

You can argue against these disadvantages individually, but their sum clearly shows the inferiority of Sorcerers.

I wouldnt say inferior... honestly its like comparing apples to oranges in my eyes.... they may both be arcane spellcasters... but they both have their ups and downs.... sure you do wizards and know your stuff so of course their good for you.... thats your "taste".... for me sorcerers are mine.... in fact I normally have my character as a sorcerer and Nenio as wizard in my parties for great synergy.... and i dont just build mine for damage alone... haste.... resist energy communal.... protection from energy communal... stoneskin communal... with heighten spell I can ensure I never have to use nenio or any other party member for those buffs....

so those things you listed may be drawbacks for you... but for me being able to cast any spells I know at their spell level and up anytime I want using metamagics is pretty much the key thing for me to play a sorcerer..... because I dont like to rest that often... like in Act 1 market square.... I clear it out without resting... in fact I only rest 2 times in Act 1 before defending tavern... to make sure I clear everything before it triggers.... drezen I only rest 2 times.... right before entering citadel after clearing everything outside..... and the room you enter right after gaining your next mythic rank... i'll even have Seelah to use lay of hands just to remove fatigue lol.... partially cause of corruption penalties and partially cause of story..... minimum you can rest is 9 hours and dont think it makes sense to just camp a lot during something like Act 1 when your under "pressure" of impending attack... and when trying to take back Drezen in the middle of a siege to rest for 9 hours in the middle of a warzone... after clearing up to the citadel makes sense to me to rest.... and after placing banner which was a big goal to achieve to help our troops....

plus my OCD hates managing spellbooks....

[Steffan]

I am really bad at playing wizards. Tried once on tabletop, it did not work well. I end of with around 50% of the spells I barely use. I excel at spontanous casters. And I am excellent spammer.

The full round action is a inconvenience but you also do not have to decide in advance how many of a certain spell you will need. It is a fair trade off. By the way, quickening a spell with a metamagic is still a swift action so a rod of quicken can change the game quite a bit.