Manticore vs Feyshifter

[Saya]

Cant decide which subclass to take for my new playthrough. Which one is the strongest ?

[Mongooses]

Originally posted by Trolleur_Durden:

First, how do you get 3 extra arrows with Manyshot? From what I'm reading ingame, the feat only applies the base weapon damage of a bow twice on the first attack of a turn, so this should translate into only a +4d6 damage bonus per turn. And if you are going to take into account specifics of the bow, the least you could do is to do the same for the spikes, for example the +2 damage bonus from the Bone fists spell which is specific to natural attacks or the +4 damage per spike the Manticore get at lvl 9.

Also, regarding Shifter's fury, it's a bit more complicated than that: this ability allows you to take one of your natural attacks and make iterative attacks with it, but by doing so, all remaining natural attacks that you have become secondary attacks, which means a -5 attack bonus. So at lvl 20, a Manticore shifter can have an attack sequence of +20/+15/+10/+5 (the selected natural attack chosen to be iterative) and +15/+15/+15 (your remaining 3 natural attacks becoming secondary), which translates into +20/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5, before taking into account any bonus attack from rapid shot, haste and such. I have no idea if those bonus attacks are considered secondary and are also made at +15 instead of +20, but since there's a feat allowing you to reduce the secondary attack penalty to -2, the final attack sequence of a character having at least 6 Manticore shifter levels is:
+20/+18/+18+18/+15/+10/+5
.

Yup my mistake on many shot, i was thinking it gave extra arrows with more attacks.

The manticore version ends up giving you 4x weapon damage on your first attack in a round. So yeah only +4d6 on the first attack there for the archer.

Between those two, the fact that it was entirely different in 3.5 and also playing dungeon and dragons online its hard to keep track of what many shot does =p

The screenshots i posted had the bone fists on. But i didn't really do a damage per shot break down, that is due to specific builds. It's why i was just saying that a fighter needs to get to about 130% of the damage per shot of a manticore (6 manticore levels) to overtake in the end. Fighter only needs to do 105% of the manticore damage per shot if the manticore stays at level 4 and doesn't get shifter's fury.

Since I was only looking at the suggested 4 manticore build it was more of a "what would we need to pick up in those 16 levels to beat a fighter." Running the assumption that both are getting full trickster improved crit feats. The manticore needs to get to 95% of the damage per attack to match the fighter.

Taking the 2 extra manticore makes it much closer, even if only 1 iterative attack actually hits. Going 6 manticore you 100% take shifter's multiattack. This drops the manticore to having to do 82% of the damage per shot of the fighter to match it.

Extra attacks from haste/ring are primary attacks. If you went manticore 6 you end up with +18/+18/+18/+18/+16/+16/+16/+13/+8/+3 from bab with haste + ring + rapid shot.

Going from my Mutation warrior above, her average damage per shot is 81. This can go up or down depending on gear and buffs (these screen shots were only taken with arcane buffs. 1 brownfur buffed both characters with what it had access to, so no prayer, etc.)

Just for this discussion ill do the 81 dmg per shot.

So a 4 manticore needs to get to an average of 81*0.95 = 77 damage per shot.
6 manticore needs to get to 81*0.82 = 66 damage per shot.

Meaning if a 6 manticore, doing 1d4 base damage before buffs can get to doing 66 damage per shot then it beats the mutation warrior. The size (manticore shape + legendary proportions) buffs brings the base damage up to 1d10.

So 1d10 ~= 6 damage per shot. get a total of +60 damage from str/weapon spec/studied target/bone fist/enhancement bonus/etc. and a 6 manticore beats a fighter on damage. This is only counting base damage, meaning stuff that is multiplied on a critical. If we can't get to the +60 damage then the deficit needs to be made up with sneak attacks, etc.

Every 1 damage lower than +60 needs an extra 1.85 damage made up from sneak attack.
Example, if we only got to +50 damage per attack, then we need another 18.5 damage from sources that don't crit.

[malkavius77]

Both are nearly equal in raw power but manticore is essentially a DW axe thrower that comes online very early. While feyform shifter is more akin to a rogue with full BAB and far tankier. Though they don't get any rogue advanced talents which would be pretty OP. ALSO feyform shifter can pick 3 minor aspects to boost it while manticore is stuck with just manticore aspect.

If you liked ranged go manticore. I look at feyform shifter as a full BAB rogue which slayer already kind of did. Though locked at 6d6 vs 10d6 of feyform not counting feats. But has DR/spell resistances/concealment/ and saves vs mind affecticing and terrain resistances. So much tankier than both the rogue and slayer with a higher damage ceiling than a rogue and probably most slayers as well while being tankier than either.

I am counting tankiness in a broad sense in this regard not just AC. A shield slayer with the right feats could probably come close or surpass feyform with the right feats and dips but as a pure class feyform on top of the 3 minor aspects it gets is hard to beat as a pure melee.

I think shifter in general lends itself to trickster and legend the most. But not solid enough to argue it lol.

[Raikon]

I think the best build for feyshifter is legend/vivisectionist

I think the best build for manticore is legend/mutation warrior.

Now which one is stronger at the height of their power? Man that's a tough one. Feyshifter has 20d6 sneak attack dice, much higher ac, and slightly lower attack bonus.

Manticore has no sneak attack, higher multiplier, more attack bonus, and attacks at range.

Honestly I can't say which is better, they are different.

[juzam_djinn_fr]

Originally posted by Mongooses:

Originally posted by Trolleur_Durden:

With only 4 levels, a Manticore shifter can have 4 attacks at full BAB, whereas a conventional archer will have iterative attacks, with incremental -5 attack malus. Arguably there's situations where a conventional two-weapon thrower will do more damage, for example when the target is really easy to hit, but the consistence of 4 full BAB attacks, which can become 5 with Rapid shot and 6 with haste effect, is quite hard to beat for a bow or crossbow user.

And the best part is that after that, you have a mythic ability to make the manticore transformation permanent and 16 levels to build around that, by taking for example fighter or slayer levels afterwards.

Manticore comes up to speed faster, but it's ceiling is lower. For the majority of the game, yep manticore is probably better, but as a completed build fighter takes it IMO.

Manticore:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2944877806

Mutation Warior:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2944877911

Yes manticore gets 3 more attacks, but slightly lower AB and lower damage per attack and lower multiplier.

They both have the same buffs, but i was only use the gear you could get in the IE starting area. Both are mercenaries, with the main character being a trickster to enable the improved crit chain. The archer has more options gear wise to scale higher. The actual weapons are what push it over. If you only had a +5 longbow, yeah manticore takes it. But the good bow and good throwing weapons end up to a better endgame character.

Overall they're close but I would give the edge to Fighter damage wise at end game.
Personally I still prefer the manticore, quicker start up and much easier to get a good AC to allow offtank/skirmishing.

My best as a non-trickster non-legend (for obvious reasons) Manticore :
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2945225167

the only buff (excluding self-buffs like my own mutagen) i've got on me is a haste potion for +1 attack per round
the only item equipped is Hasting Expense for +1 attack per round

My Attack bonus is actually +4 higher because i've got a +4 passive bonus to ranged attack who is only displayed on combat log.

My Damages are +6.5 higher because i've got Hammer the Gap feat.

Imho, it's definitely better than bow user, If something can compete, it will be dual wielding throwing weapon and it will be difficult.

[Dave]

ALL analyses are good, but the bottom real true answer is this.

Fey and Manticore are the BEST Shifter Archetype, so you're on the right track

Fey is a melee rogue (without a lot of rogue talents, so can't really tank with it)

Manticore is an Archer (with powers replacing the missing talents)

Both are ok for multiclass if you take 4 levels. Both are ok to make lvl 20 cos their power scales well.

So...which one to pick?

Easy

Do you want a MELEE two-weapon-fighting rogue that attacks 5-6-7 times per turn with sneak attack?

Do you want a RANGED char that shoots 14 arrow per turn?

Both are viable, it depends on which kind of char you like the most

P.S.
Having a melee NON-TANK char, if played on high difficulty (Unfair) can be troublesome cos of how aggro works in this game.

[Homer Morisson]

Welp, I'm no min-maxer and I rarely (if ever) multiclass, so take my take for what it is:

I've just started what was supposed to be a test run in Through the Ashes, with Feyshifter just to see what the new class can do and how it feels, and what can I say, I really enjoy it so far.

Having the claws gives you quite a powerful default melee weapon, you don't have to bother about finding better gear on that front, getting 20% Concealment from Fey Aspect is also very nice, and ultimately, the Claws even get Bypass DR/-, which is quite powerful in its own right.

On top of this, you get to transform into an Ankhou, which even early on gives you a whopping 5 Attacks instead of the 2 in your regular form, plus all the bonuses from your Claws still apply in Ankhou form, which is pretty amazeballs all round.

Visuals are cool (finally claws actually show up on your character!), and the Ankhou transfo feels like a proper back-against-the-wall trump action like in the best movies, the hero is almost beaten, but then his inner power awakens and he transforms into a murder machine... basically exactly what an Ankhou is, heh.

[Babbles]

Originally posted by Eldariol:

ankhu is free 10d6 sneak attack + lich with great invisible and overpowered buffs from mystic book. Ofc u can select trickster but ankhu is undead.

I thought Ankous were Fey Assassins?