What in the Actual Hell is With Owlcat's Balance?

[Wyzilla]

I've been extensively playing this game for a while now and I am both unsurprised yet extremely disappointed that Owlcat remains frankly, a terrible developer judging by just the sheer amount of bugs present in a game that has been out for a long time. But additionally, the balance remains absolutely godawful, with the two combining to

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/627175370818453514/1076862571124117504/image.png

What the ♥♥♥♥ is the justification for this on NORMAL? I had to do a double take when seeing the stats on a supposed mere level 13 demon which somehow has a total AC over ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ 40 when the actual pen and paper version only has... 27 at roughly the same difficulty scale. Having 'easier' difficulties (lmao when 'actual stats from the books' is "easy mode") doesn't excuse this ♥♥♥♥ when easier difficulties also completely cripple bossfights and leave demigod level demon lords easy for level 15's to whip while bringing the rest down to the threat level they should be at per the book.

Once again I looked into this game because I thought 'oh hey, maybe this is a good way for me to get a pathfinder jam while being without a group myself', and yet again I am horribly mistaken because Owlcat doesn't seem to even pay heed to the rulebooks in the first place. Have any modders take it upon themselves to ♥♥♥♥♥♥ this atrocious state of balance and bring it in line as a faithful adaption of the PnP because I am sick and tired of having to slog through fight after fight, REQUIRING the use of a caster armed up to the gills with web, grease, and command esque spells to ensure victory. I shouldn't have to munchkin my way through ♥♥♥♥ just to be able to play normal without reloading saves.

[Jan]

I play a tanky eldritch scoundrel with nice sneak attack and crits using a lot of buffs, feels pretty good. But even more insane is the damage of Wendu (Assassin, Longbow) and the demon waifu (Spy, Shortbow). They have so many attacks and just hit everything with normal auto attacks. Daeron is there for healing and Ember or Nenio cast some spells in bigger fights. The Paladin girl is there to absorb a few more hits. Mostly I use buff spells on me and the two ranged guys and Aivu to boost AC, attack, dmg, general defense. It just works great.

I save a LOT, after every corner. If I go unbuffed in a fight some party member might go down but with all buffs up+summons for tough encounters every fight was ok so far. The water elemental in the first city was hard, it took a few runs. The Lich guy was also not easy to beat. I play one difficulty higher than normal with companion auto level off and respec on. Seems perfect for me so far. My current party could also work on higher diffuculties I think.

Crusade mode seems better than the Kingmaker minigame. Balance of generals seems a bit off. Arcane casters+healing is the way to go. No reason to play fighters or rangers.

Overall, really good game so far. Took me 3 hours to make my characters, closing in on 90 h now. After my neutral/good/chaotic Azata game I want to do a full evil run as Demon.

[Wyzilla]

Publicado originalmente por FluffyPotato:

Yea, I feel you OP. I always customize my difficulty so it's as close to PnP as I can with extra enemies and extra skills for enemies but unfortunately some enemies have either stats that are too low or way too high even like this. I really wish these games had a PnP mode.

The main issue I have is that the boss difficulty on core, is for the most part honest, and with Demon Lords or literal Gods, right on point. Set things to easier enemies to fix the horrific mob overleveling though and suddenly you can burn clean through the bosses without a sweat. Same issue was present in Kingmaker where the mob difficulty was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid but because boss and mob CR is tied to the same setting, either you have joke bosses and balanced mobs or balanced bosses and busted mobs.

[Wyzilla]

Publicado originalmente por Nightstrasza:

Publicado originalmente por Immortal Reaver:

So Full Plate should just give 100% DR unless enemy hit you by more than 9 points (d20+AB)-AC difference. If difference is bigger then enemy hit you in gaps and you get no DR.

I don't know how I would do it, realistically, you try to slice with a kitchen knife against a full plated knight?, no damage. More realistically it would probably also include blunt force trauma, strength modifiers, material, weight, impact point, flexibility of armor materials, resistance of body inside said materials, are there any openings such as bends or open spaces like for neck etc. So much, but yes, I rather prefer an enemy to deal to me 0 dmg or reduced dmg from wearing armor than have the protection be bundled together with the same mechanics as dodging and either take no damage bcs "dodged" or I was sliced as if I didn't wear any armor bcs the only armor that gives any DR here is adamantium. There is a game that kind of tries to simulate it, Dwarf Fortress, it has material flexibility, openings and so on. And no, I don't expect devs to make such drastic major changes or Paizo, I merely wish it worked differently.

The issue is that D&D and Pathfinder for that matter as a spinoff have always just had bad combat in the first place when it comes to realism or sensibility. GURPS, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2e, and RuneQuest/Mythras handle it far, far better, largely because the ability to dodge strikes and armor are differentiated. Were D&D and its derivatives to ever overhaul its combat system, armor should always be DR based and separate from dodging. Much of the system's woes are owed to the lazy fusion of both.

[Babbles]

Publicado originalmente por Nightstrasza:

Also,

Try paragraphs ...

[Babbles]

Publicado originalmente por Wyzilla:

Publicado originalmente por Babbles:

This *isn't* PNP though - it is a cRPG. You have a reload button, right there. I don't want to be one of the one percenters (I'm only about 25% e-peener) - this game was tested in a Beta - people found RAW to be far too easy.

So we get difficulty sliders and boosted stats.

If you want RAW, play Baldurs Gate 2 for the 20th time and maybe reload once in the entire game.

I don't mean to come off harsh, it is just I play this game on Hard and *don't* hold, hex or entangle yet fare pretty well with a variety of sub optimal builds.

Competence, variety, intrigue and flair still have a place in games like these, maybe some people need more time invested?

Edit: The reason I don't hold or entangle is because peeps get a save every round against that, with the boosted stats they will save, pretty quickly, for most our plebeian sub optimal builds. Maybe try a Melee face smash party? Hardly optimal, yet it works.

Of course people found PnP too easy because for some strange reason the devs seem to entirely cater to the Munchkin subculture where people take a dip into 4 different classes just to gather up extra feats or AC boons to pump themselves up, coupled with giving you an extra boost in starting stats which isn't even necessary in the first place. Designing a game around the fact you have a save game button is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid because no game dev should design anything based solely on the premise of save scumming. That's just outright bad game design and doesn't facilitate 'difficulty' of a true nature either, the sole difficulty factor is 'i need numba go up' with zero thought further than that (while also, punishing actual proper roleplaying).

The fact that an appeal to Baldur's Gate 2 is made is more damning than anything, because an industry shouldn't be so trapped within the shadow of former great works that it is incapable of producing something superior.

I also call total ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on the idea that just a bunch of fighters can take on a fight without caster cheese, as in many fights you are up against 40, 50 AC and will not have the means to reduce it, and shatter defenses won't get you out of situations where you are being smothered by dazed and nobody is capable of even acting.

Publicado originalmente por SnuffSaid:

The key difference is most RPGs, even on their very hardest difficulties, don't rely on reloads as much simply because you can adapt to a deteriorating situation on the fly. You can see a spell or what not is swinging an encounter in the enemies favour and counter it mid-combat. Here you have to pre-buff to counter most things, so the only way to truly be prepared on your first go would be to slowly edge out the fog of war until you see an enemy, expand their tooltip and really study that wall of text about them, then pre-buff. I guarantee almost nobody is doing that on their first go though, they are just throwing their characters into the blender, then looking at the combat log and what went wrong, reloading and pre-buffing. Over and over. Same when dice rolls go against them. Veteran players have simply memorised the encounters and forgotten how annoying it can be. Combine this with the fact that the reload times are just a tiny fraction too slow even with an SSD, and the tedium can really mount.

The problem isn't edging the fog of war forward and spotting enemies, that's easy enough. The problem is when you are thrust into fights and don't have the chance to prebuff at all. The screenshot is form a random encounter on the road where I spawned with four demons literally right on top of me, CR far ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ higher than my party had any right to fight, and literally no time to buff while being immediately assaulted, flat footed, out of the gate. Likewise if you have scene transfers you will HAVE to reload because you have no way to know what the fight coming up even is, what their weaknesses or DR is, etc.

The entire focus of the devs around reloading as a core ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ mechanic is pathetic and just born of lazy ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ design with bad encounter structures. Owcal is an atrocious DM and I really hope that any Pathfinder games in the future do not go to their studio ever again, so perhaps in the future we might actually have a pathfinder game that is a proper bloody adaption.

What? I said THIS GAME was tested in Beta, not PnP.

Edit: If you don't like reloading, play the table top adventure path. The choice is that simple. Owlcat *isn't* a DM, ffs, it is a computer game company.

Why can't people see the difference? Are we all that entitled?

[Mravenrocks]

Wyzilla only wants to complain and they ignore any answer that doesn't agree with them. It's PROVEN than you can beat core while focusing on roleplaying but they don't want to believe it.

You can for example make a human Wizard 20 while taking feats that make sense both for roleplaying and are good, go for example Lich mythic path. Take a party like Wenduag, Daeran, Regill, Camellia and Nenio. Make them all only level up in their base classes (maybe take Hellknight for Regill if you think it makes RP sense, same for Nenio and some Loremaster levels), make them all only take feats and skills that make sense roleplay wise, pick spells for Darean and Camellia that make sense RP wise, Nenio and your MC can cast whatever they want as it make sense for Wizard in the P&P game.

And beat Core without the need to reload many times or at all (you could do it playing last Azlanti) but Wyzilla will lie or make up a reason why that isn't true when I know it can easily be done.
I've beaten the game on Unfair + Last Azlanti so I know what I'm talking about. This thread is ridiculous because it's like talking with a rabid brick wall.

And they also say crazy things like "taking Last Stand goes against roleplaying because it's OP" or "grease is too strong so it's not roleplaying", I have a hard time thinking they aren't trolling.

[Korgz]

Publicado originalmente por Wyzilla:

The issue is I shouldn't have to read up to build my party, that's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid. The entire point of these games is to be an adaption of the Pathfinder System, 1e for Kingmaker and 2e for WOTR. Especially in WOTR's case one of the entire points of the 2e overhaul is to take character customization to greater depths than before to facilitate roleplaying where there are no bad choices.

Sorry mate but WotR is 1e not 2e. I am not sure how you could be confused about that given the differences.

[Raikon]

There are mods that exist that bring the experience closer to table top. I believe its called table top tweaks.

[Spectre]

Wrath's problem back as an AP was that Paizo didn't know how to balance for actual PCs. 100 Dretches to a 12th level party is just an awkward fifteen minutes of cleaving.

The problem I find when I deal with the game Owlcat made is that above Casual, they don't seem to actually follow the actual Pathfinder RPG rules. Armor classes, attack bonuses and the like seem to leap into the stratosphere. And I'm still not sure if Seelah is getting the double damage on first smite hit against evil outsiders, undead and dragons like she's supposed to.

I can only imagine Owlcat made the changes they made not to appeal to the 'munchkins' but to make it so that enemies wouldn't evaporate in 18 seconds. The assumed 6 second round in Pathfinder, and 3e before it, has always caused issues for a genuine representation of the Pen and Paper ruleset. I remember the stupid 'Parry' rules in NWN.

Owlcat has continued the D&D CRPG tradition of making stupidly twee builds for NPCs though, instead of more boring, and more 'mainstream' ones.

That being said, as someone pointed out, the magic items in Wrath are stupidly OP for anything that would ever show up on a tabletop. But at the same time, the idea that the average cultist in Kenabres is an 11th level character is ridiculous.

In my case, I just play on Casual with no damage-to-me nerfing and deal with things as normal.

[SnuffSaid]

Publicado originalmente por elbentzo:

Publicado originalmente por SnuffSaid:

I'm noticing a trend that people who munchkin don't seem to actually perceive what they are doing as munchkin. All it means is you're min/maxing and taking advantage of overpowered class features and spells, and you are sacrificing some degree of roleplaying to do so, which you are definitely doing above core because it's necessary. Even I am being a bit of a munchkin on my latest playthrough on core, because I know how OP animal companions are and have 3 in my party, even though it doesn't really fit the themes of the characters, especially Daeran who I took an extra mystery on just to get a second doggo to abuse tandem trip. He doesn't strike me as an animal lover, but that single OP mythic perk as an Oracle was too tempting to pass up.

I've got 200 hours now so while I'm not quite fitting your criteria, I think I'm in a good position to judge. Especially because I took a long break and forgot where most of the encounters are, whereas somebody who played hundreds consecutively may have memorised many key encounters and pre-buffed for them.

I'm noticing a trend where people who don't find success in core without munchkining/min-maxing/power-gaming seem to assert that it's impossible to beat core without those things. So much so that they have to frown upon the use of Grease or the outflank feat, just so they could say people who don't dip into classes, don't abuse bugs or exploits, don't dump stats, don't give the pickpocket background to every character they maket, etc., *still* qualify as munchkins. Thus ``proving" their point that the only way to beat core is to munchkin your way through it.

Nah, you're just upset that I actually spelled out some of the vastly unbalanced feats that munchkins take advantage of, and you now know there is no possible way you can pretend you don't use them, and are in fact; a munchkin.

Also lol @ pickpocket - Yet another player who is clearly aware of every unbalanced part of this game, yet pretends not to take advantage of any of them. Sure buddy, sure.

[SnuffSaid]

Publicado originalmente por Nightstrasza:

Also, our "munchkin" definitions might be different, is where I might appear defensive while you try to convince me I'm at fault..

I did read the rest of what you wrote and I agree with a lot of it, but I'm focusing on this because I am definitely not trying to convince you, or anyone else, that they are at fault. You are doing exactly the same things I am doing, I've said multiple times in this threads which munchkin things I myself take advantage of, even if we don't share the same definition. The fault lies with the developers for tuning encounters so that many of the options they provided aren't actually viable. I'd never expect perfect balance, but some class features, Mythic feats and spells are huge outliers, the kind of things that can turn a character from a limp noodle into a powerhouse in a single click. Or even your whole party into a powerhouse in a single level; for example I can't think of any metagaming reason not to take outflank on everybody as soon as it's available at level 7. It can turn a mediocre team into a blender of death, nothing else comes close. So I have a wealth of options but only really one logical choice.

[Nero]

A game like this can never be balanced, because the PnP system doesn't translate well into a cRPG.
Hate them like you want but Tyranny and Pillars of Eternity 2 are leagues better concerning the core-gameplay. Because the rules were made with a cRPG in mind, not a PnP
(WotR is still a great game and a faithful conversion into a cRPG)

This game has min-max players that mock the companions for weak stats and classes.
And you have players that pick useless traits that fit their character.
Both play at least in the beginning on normal.

In the PnP the DM can do a lot to balance things and in general non-combat is much more important.
Here almost everything boils down to max combat-efficiency, weird dips (from a "lore" perspective), etc.

[pete3great]

Publicado originalmente por Nero:

(WotR is still a great game and a faithful conversion into a cRPG)

No, it's not. Even the people who support the bad balance admit it's not a faithful conversion.

[Nero]

Publicado originalmente por pete3great:

Publicado originalmente por Nero:

(WotR is still a great game and a faithful conversion into a cRPG)

No, it's not. Even the people who support the bad balance admit it's not a faithful conversion.

I mean the rules.
They had to inflate everything, sure.
And some mechanics are semi.

But the core is there

[Baldurs_Gate_2]

Publicado originalmente por Mravenrocks:

Wyzilla only wants to complain and they ignore any answer that doesn't agree with them. It's PROVEN than you can beat core while focusing on roleplaying but they don't want to believe it.

You can for example make a human Wizard 20 while taking feats that make sense both for roleplaying and are good, go for example Lich mythic path. Take a party like Wenduag, Daeran, Regill, Camellia and Nenio. Make them all only level up in their base classes (maybe take Hellknight for Regill if you think it makes RP sense, same for Nenio and some Loremaster levels), make them all only take feats and skills that make sense roleplay wise, pick spells for Darean and Camellia that make sense RP wise, Nenio and your MC can cast whatever they want as it make sense for Wizard in the P&P game.

And beat Core without the need to reload many times or at all (you could do it playing last Azlanti) but Wyzilla will lie or make up a reason why that isn't true when I know it can easily be done.
I've beaten the game on Unfair + Last Azlanti so I know what I'm talking about. This thread is ridiculous because it's like talking with a rabid brick wall.

And they also say crazy things like "taking Last Stand goes against roleplaying because it's OP" or "grease is too strong so it's not roleplaying", I have a hard time thinking they aren't trolling.

So me casting 20 heightened sirocco and waiting invis for the boss to die is not roleplaying i guess.

But i don't care. I only care to be as overpowered as possible. Played the game for 500 hours and don't know 80% of the lore, it's not important for me. If the gameplay would be bad, i would not even bothered to complete the game.