What in the Actual Hell is With Owlcat's Balance?

[Wyzilla]

I've been extensively playing this game for a while now and I am both unsurprised yet extremely disappointed that Owlcat remains frankly, a terrible developer judging by just the sheer amount of bugs present in a game that has been out for a long time. But additionally, the balance remains absolutely godawful, with the two combining to

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/627175370818453514/1076862571124117504/image.png

What the ♥♥♥♥ is the justification for this on NORMAL? I had to do a double take when seeing the stats on a supposed mere level 13 demon which somehow has a total AC over ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ 40 when the actual pen and paper version only has... 27 at roughly the same difficulty scale. Having 'easier' difficulties (lmao when 'actual stats from the books' is "easy mode") doesn't excuse this ♥♥♥♥ when easier difficulties also completely cripple bossfights and leave demigod level demon lords easy for level 15's to whip while bringing the rest down to the threat level they should be at per the book.

Once again I looked into this game because I thought 'oh hey, maybe this is a good way for me to get a pathfinder jam while being without a group myself', and yet again I am horribly mistaken because Owlcat doesn't seem to even pay heed to the rulebooks in the first place. Have any modders take it upon themselves to ♥♥♥♥♥♥ this atrocious state of balance and bring it in line as a faithful adaption of the PnP because I am sick and tired of having to slog through fight after fight, REQUIRING the use of a caster armed up to the gills with web, grease, and command esque spells to ensure victory. I shouldn't have to munchkin my way through ♥♥♥♥ just to be able to play normal without reloading saves.

[leyasu888]

I feel the pathfinder games, both kingmaker and wotr are very unforgiving in terms of mechanics.

Once you learn the intricacies of the pathfinder game system and how to combo certain feats between party members or on one character you can become rediculously powerful but if you are a first time player and new to the pathfinder rules set the learning curve can be really high for a modern game.

I know i had to read up on how to properly build my characters and my party when i first started playing this game and i am to this day learning new things about feats i have never used before and how things just "work" in pathfinder.

But once you get an understanding of the mechanics and know how to build your party the options available to make powerful mobs simply explode in one round will certainly satisfy your inner munchkin.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Yeah. It is how it is.
Allthough currently on level 11 i have my main ranger and his pet be able to do with haste, bless and heroism +25 to attack. (I can also give the pet greater magic fang which increases the AB by +3) Arushalae should have around 23 or so AB as well along with Lann.(Allthough i dont have them in the party.)So i would not have issues with hitting them. But they would hit about every third time of their attacks.

Seelah can have around 38 or so AC, while leopard can have 40+ along with Seelah's horse.
But i make the most damage by not hitting anything. I took up the mythic feat with Seelah that makes her damage everything with her STR bonus that she misses. Since Smite also adds the Charisma bonus to this, using throwing axes i can reliable do 17 damage per turn on anything considered evil. (So i would take down such a demon in 3 turns in worst case scenario.)

You can also use Ember's Evil Eye to add -4 AC to demons for one turn which would make it a bit more bareable, or if they are vulnerable to sleep, use slumber/deep slumber to just coup de grace them.

If you lack a tank, you can also use summons (preferably skeletons) to block the enemies while you shoot them down.(The Oracle should have animated dead)

[pete3great]

Yeah, I totally agree. Between the bugs and the not-true-to-tabletop stat block inflation of mobs, I don't think it's a game worth paying full price for. Kingmaker is the same way, and my experience with that game is why I waited for a crazy sale to get WotR for $15. Couldn't imagine paying more.

[MjKorz]

PnP is balanced for 4 character parties, this is balanced for 6.

The game difficulty is perfectly fine and is one of the reasons why the game has actual staying power despite severely lacking in chea- I mean """modding""" support. If the game was easy, you'd be complaining about how easy it is.

Once you learn how the game works you will not have trouble with anything.

[Wyzilla]

Escrito originalmente por leyasu888:

I feel the pathfinder games, both kingmaker and wotr are very unforgiving in terms of mechanics.

Once you learn the intricacies of the pathfinder game system and how to combo certain feats between party members or on one character you can become rediculously powerful but if you are a first time player and new to the pathfinder rules set the learning curve can be really high for a modern game.

I know i had to read up on how to properly build my characters and my party when i first started playing this game and i am to this day learning new things about feats i have never used before and how things just "work" in pathfinder.

But once you get an understanding of the mechanics and know how to build your party the options available to make powerful mobs simply explode in one round will certainly satisfy your inner munchkin.

The issue is I shouldn't have to read up to build my party, that's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid. The entire point of these games is to be an adaption of the Pathfinder System, 1e for Kingmaker and 2e for WOTR. Especially in WOTR's case one of the entire points of the 2e overhaul is to take character customization to greater depths than before to facilitate roleplaying where there are no bad choices.

Meanwhile in WOTR Owlcat edition, it basically bears zero similarity to PnP at all, all enemies are hideously overcranked stat wise (save for the gods/demon lords I think). There is no roleplaying at all, rather you have to be a dirty little munchkin and build specific builds in order to kill enemies and god forbid you deviate from the munchkin mindset, because then you literally cannot kill anything. I lucked out in that I like Cavalier so it's at least not ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ like most fighters in Owlcat games but even then he's not worth ♥♥♥♥ against random demon encounters where you have no time to buff and fight things with double or even triple their stats on TT. I came here wanting a Pathfinder game and what I got was some batsh*t insane fan book made by a horrible DM.

And it's not even just a matter of fights being too hard, but the wrong fights being hard at that. Demon Lords and others should be massive threats (especially I think you fight Charon himself at one point?!), but why the HELL are a bunch of Smilodons level 17? The levelling system in pathfinder is supposed to scale based upon notoriety and power, level 15 for a human is beyond most kings or famous lords, well into Conan territory. Why is a random pack of animals pumped up like they're all exemplars of their entire race and could annihilate a Minotaur from the start of the game?

[pete3great]

Escrito originalmente por MjKorz:

PnP is balanced for 4 character parties, this is balanced for 6.

The game difficulty is perfectly fine and is one of the reasons why the game has actual staying power despite severely lacking in chea- I mean """modding""" support. If the game was easy, you'd be complaining about how easy it is.

Once you learn how the game works you will not have trouble with anything.

None of these things are true. But the last is especially funny coming from someone from the InEffect school of "I only use cheese builds that completely subvert actual gameplay" school.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Escrito originalmente por MjKorz:

PnP is balanced for 4 character parties, this is balanced for 6.

The game difficulty is perfectly fine and is one of the reasons why the game has actual staying power despite severely lacking in chea- I mean """modding""" support. If the game was easy, you'd be complaining about how easy it is.

Once you learn how the game works you will not have trouble with anything.

I am just taking the devil's advocate here.
PNP is balanced for 4 character's that you and your fellows create. Here you create 1.
(Later on you can have more "created" characters but that does cost a lot. Not to mention i remember still when i was playing my first Tabletop game of COC in 20+years ago and how awful i performed:) )
The game difficulty is not okay, it is actually considered hard. I do not have any real issues on core difficulty, even though i am not that well versed in PF or PF2. I do have experience in other CRPG-s and tabletop RPG-s.

The learning curve for players that are not familiar with games like this is quite steep though. It has a few complicated systems, whereas also lacks some of the systems you can encounter in RPG-s.(I miss counterspell options.)
They must take quite a time to learn these systems. Some have what it takes others do not feel like to invest in the time for it.

[Wyzilla]

Escrito originalmente por MjKorz:

PnP is balanced for 4 character parties, this is balanced for 6.

The game difficulty is perfectly fine and is one of the reasons why the game has actual staying power despite severely lacking in chea- I mean """modding""" support. If the game was easy, you'd be complaining about how easy it is.

Once you learn how the game works you will not have trouble with anything.

Why do people always trot out this argument to ride the ♥♥♥♥ of the devs, pnp is balanced ideally for 4, many play in larger groups than that and the jump from 4 to 6 players doesn't mean demons go from 27 AC to ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ 41. The entire point of a DM is to well assess and balance the enemies against the player group, which means you send in MORE enemies, you don't arbitrarily buff them beyond even the point of their normal CR. As level 17 Smilodons are one thing, but having Demons only 2 levels removed from their normal statline yet having 14 extra AC is ridiculous, and it certainly isn't RAW faithful at all.

Moreover I can just as well 'learn the game bro', the caveat is that 'learning the game' is exclusively playing as a munchkin where you simply copy builds and steps form online guides with zero roleplaying involved at all. I've already played Kingmaker and it was the exact same mindless argument from fanboys then that obviously Owlcat isn't simply an atrocious DM, it's just a whopping 2 player difference now means the random encounters could probably wipe the average 6 player group or nearly party wipe.

Escrito originalmente por Nordil(Hun):

Escrito originalmente por MjKorz:

PnP is balanced for 4 character parties, this is balanced for 6.

The game difficulty is perfectly fine and is one of the reasons why the game has actual staying power despite severely lacking in chea- I mean """modding""" support. If the game was easy, you'd be complaining about how easy it is.

Once you learn how the game works you will not have trouble with anything.

I am just taking the devil's advocate here.
PNP is balanced for 4 character's that you and your fellows create. Here you create 1.
(Later on you can have more "created" characters but that does cost a lot. Not to mention i remember still when i was playing my first Tabletop game of COC in 20+years ago and how awful i performed:) )
The game difficulty is not okay, it is actually considered hard. I do not have any real issues on core difficulty, even though i am not that well versed in PF or PF2. I do have experience in other CRPG-s and tabletop RPG-s.

The learning curve for players that are not familiar with games like this is quite steep though. It has a few complicated systems, whereas also lacks some of the systems you can encounter in RPG-s.(I miss counterspell options.)
They must take quite a time to learn these systems. Some have what it takes others do not feel like to invest in the time for it.

The issue is that it isn't a learning curve at all. It's simply a requirement of exclusively spamming caster builds dumping evil eye, deathward, grease, web, etc to disable enemies so you don't get wiped out by the counterattacks. If you dare to play any other way you get the joys of having to savescum relentlessly, and even when using such tactics at times you still need to savescum since you have no idea what threat might be next beyond 'demon', thus your chosen spells may be built for an entirely incorrect threat.

Moreover the game assumes you are rocking every single possible buff at every point in time (even though that's literally not possible on the world map), and thus the only way to play the game in the first place is to drag around a pile of scrolls or 1-2 casters to spend 2-3 minutes before every fight casting a long list of spells you can't even have the common decency to just put into a script so it all goes off at once.

[MjKorz]

Escrito originalmente por pete3great:

None of these things are true. But the last is especially funny coming from someone from the InEffect school of "I only use cheese builds that completely subvert actual gameplay" school.

Ineffect is a clown and his builds are a literal joke running in the part of Pathfinder community that actually understands how the game works. If you think they're good, you're no better than him.

And if you think the game poses any challenge once you understand the mechanics, you don't actually understand how the game works (which you don't as you have already proven previously).

[Immortal Reaver]

Escrito originalmente por Wyzilla:

What the ♥♥♥♥ is the justification for this on NORMAL? I had to do a double take when seeing the stats on a supposed mere level 13 demon which somehow has a total AC over ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ 40 when the actual pen and paper version only has... 27 at roughly the same difficulty scale.

That enemy does exist in PnP. But original is also lvl 11, this is 13, so it is clear this is boosted version of Gibrileth, from both the level and the name.

This is same for every demon, that has added things to name. Like Babau Infitrator, Mythic Dretch and then also Named monsters are more powerful than their version in PnP.

[Wyzilla]

Escrito originalmente por Immortal Reaver:

Escrito originalmente por Wyzilla:

What the ♥♥♥♥ is the justification for this on NORMAL? I had to do a double take when seeing the stats on a supposed mere level 13 demon which somehow has a total AC over ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ 40 when the actual pen and paper version only has... 27 at roughly the same difficulty scale.

That enemy does exist in PnP. But original is also lvl 11, this is 13, so it is clear this is boosted version of Gibrileth, from both the level and the name.

This is same for every demon, that has added things to name. Like Babau Infitrator, Mythic Dretch and then also Named monsters are more powerful than their version in PnP.

This is rather missing the point that a jump of 14 AC is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ nuts over just two levels, along with the hideous stat bloat.

[MjKorz]

Escrito originalmente por Wyzilla:

pnp is balanced ideally for 4, many play in larger groups than that

Yes, many people prefer to play easy mode in adventure paths that are already easy mode, like the original WoTR AP.

Escrito originalmente por Wyzilla:

the jump from 4 to 6 players doesn't mean demons go from 27 AC to ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ 41.

If you think that this jump cannot be mitigated by 2 extra party members, you have no clue how the game works.

Escrito originalmente por Wyzilla:

The entire point of a DM

Don't care, there is no DM in videogames.

Escrito originalmente por Wyzilla:

which means you send in MORE enemies, you don't arbitrarily buff them

Sending in more weak enemies in a game like this means literally nothing. A couple of points in AC coupled with something like Protective Luck can make a tank unhittable unless you have a habit of winning the lottery. A couple of extra points in main casting stat can buff the DC of an AoE disabling spell to a level where it becomes virtually impossible to resist. Your extra waves of trash mobs mean literally nothing and anyone who does this is a garbage DM.

Escrito originalmente por Wyzilla:

isn't RAW faithful at all.

Don't care, this is not a 100% faithful conversion of the AP by any means, both mechanically and story-wise.

Escrito originalmente por Wyzilla:

Moreover I can just as well 'learn the game bro', the caveat is that 'learning the game' is exclusively playing as a munchkin

No, it isn't, unless you're playing unfair. You can roflstomp Core with meme parties.

[Immortal Reaver]

Escrito originalmente por Wyzilla:

The entire point of these games is to be an adaption of the Pathfinder System, 1e for Kingmaker and 2e for WOTR. Especially in WOTR's case one of the entire points of the 2e overhaul is to take character customization to greater depths than before to facilitate roleplaying where there are no bad choices.

WotR is still 1E, not 2E.

Escrito originalmente por pete3great:

Escrito originalmente por MjKorz:

PnP is balanced for 4 character parties, this is balanced for 6.

Once you learn how the game works you will not have trouble with anything.

None of these things are true.

It is true that normal PnP, CR is made for 4 man party. The thing with mod it is nonsense.
But he forgot to add that PnP statblock is also for 15 stat point buy, and less powerful equpiment and no Mythic Paths.

[pete3great]

Escrito originalmente por Wyzilla:

Escrito originalmente por Immortal Reaver:

That enemy does exist in PnP. But original is also lvl 11, this is 13, so it is clear this is boosted version of Gibrileth, from both the level and the name.

This is same for every demon, that has added things to name. Like Babau Infitrator, Mythic Dretch and then also Named monsters are more powerful than their version in PnP.

This is rather missing the point that a jump of 14 AC is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ nuts over just two levels, along with the hideous stat bloat.

It's also speaks to Owlcat's failure that other PnP adaptations don't have to inflate stats like this.

[Wyzilla]

Escrito originalmente por MjKorz:

If you think that this jump cannot be mitigated by 2 extra party members, you have no clue how the game works.

Why the ♥♥♥♥ would I ever be solely playing an RPG as a munchkin who solely thinks about breaking said system?

Escrito originalmente por MjKorz:

Don't care, there is no DM in videogames.

There is a DM, the DM is the devs of the game lmao.

Escrito originalmente por MjKorz:

Sending in more weak enemies in a game like this means literally nothing. A couple of points in AC coupled with something like Protective Luck can make a tank unhittable unless you have a habit of winning the lottery. A couple of extra points in main casting stat can buff the DC of an AoE disabling spell to a level where it becomes virtually impossible to resist. Your extra waves of trash mobs mean literally nothing and anyone who does this is a garbage DM.

Or alternatively you don't have garbage players who purposefully seek to break the system and are hostile to the DM in the first place. Judging by how Owlcat seems to presume its 'balance', you in fact seem to be the problem at hand by focusing on rollplaying.

Escrito originalmente por MjKorz:

Don't care, this is not a 100% faithful conversion of the AP by any means, both mechanically and story-wise.

Then it's a bad adaption and notably not Pathfinder at all.

Escrito originalmente por MjKorz:

No, it isn't, unless you're playing unfair. You can roflstomp Core with meme parties.

Only provided you have the free time to layer yourself with a dozen buffing abilities for the party before engaging a threat.