Sell me on Blaster Caster MC

[MechaTC]

The title. Worth mentioning that I'm mostly playing Midnight Isles DLC and, well... For whatever reason I just can't make it work

I mean, spell resistance is a pain to deal with, but not so much for Lich and Angel. Other mythic I've tried seem to struggle quite a lot because of limited caster level

My biggest gripe is how limited the damage seem to be. Now don't get me wrong, AoE Empowered Bolstered 30d6 does seem like a good damage, but in one-on-one Blaster Casters seem so very limited/ Maybe it's just my perception playing tricks on me, but it seems like a bunch of slayers with kukri and outflank/seize/reflexes can do so much more

So far I've got much more pleasure making MC a Buffer Caster. Either Brownfur Necro (who, it seems, can also act as a decent frontliner with perma haste/vampiric blades/transformation/dragonkind) or an Angel with sick defensive buffs. Am I missing something?

[MjKorz]

First of all, spell penetration is a meaningless stat starting from chapter 3, because you can easily stack enough of it to virtually never fail on any mythic path that does not merge spellbooks including Trickster.

Secondly, AoE direct damage dealing spellcasters will always lack single target damage compared to ray casters, because AoE spells do not crit and bonus critical damage constitutes a good chunk of a ray caster's weighted average damage, not to mention a huge chunk of a ray caster's damage who can guarantee criticals (Trickster via Trick Fate).

Take a Lich with CL40 Evocation spells as an example. By using favoriteBolstered-favoriteEmpowered-favoriteMaximized Chain Lightning converted into fire and shooting it at a target made vulnerable to fire while having +6 damage/die from draconic bloodlines and items, the spell can inflict 1260 points of damage on the primary target and 420 damage on secondary targets:
(6 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 2)*40*1.5*1.5 = 1260 (primary),
(6 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 2)*40*1.5*0.5 = 420 (secondary).

However, this assumes that the target will never succeed on its Reflex save, which can be arranged via combination of Evocation DC stacking and using Touch of Law on the target to eliminate any chance of it rolling a natural 20.

However, if the target has Improved Evasion, he will take only half the damage even on a failed save: 1260*0.5 = 630.


Now, take a ray caster with those same +6 damage/die and shoot a favoriteBolstered-favoriteEmpowered-favoriteMaximized CL19 Hellfire Ray at a target vulnerable to fire:
(6 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 2)*15*1.5*1.5*3 = 1417.5 damage total from all 3 rays.
472.5 damage from 1 ray.

Looks comparable, but keep in mind that this is without taking into account critical hits. If we do that, things become vastly different.

If we assume that all rays are guaranteed to crit via Trick Fate, Hellfire Ray damage becomes:
(6 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 2)*15*1.5*1.5*3*4 = 5670 damage total from all 3 rays.
1890 damage from 1 ray.

This damage, however, does not take into account 50% fortification. The average weighted damage against such a target would be simply 5670*4*(0.5^3) = 5670*0.5 = 2835.

So in the best-worst case scenario (guaranteed crits vs 50% fortification), a ray caster is going to deliver x2.25 the single target damage on average. In the absolute best case scenario against targets with no fortification, the ray caster will deliver x4.5 the single target damage.


It is also possible to calculate intermediate cases for Hellfire Ray average weighted damage, which will look less impressive, especially against fortified targets.

Due to Loremaster being able to pick Trickster feats on any mythic path, a ray caster can reach a 17-20/x3 critical profile. The probability of any of the 3 rays being a critical is 0.2.

Probability of 0/3 rays being criticals, total damage per cast:
0.8^3 = 0.512, 1417.5 damage.

Probability of 1/3 rays being a critical:
0.2*(0.8^2)*3 = 0.384, 1890 + 472.5*2 = 2835 damage.

Probability of 2/3 rays being criticals:
(0.2^2)*0.8*3 = 0.096, 1890*2 + 472.5 = 4252.5 damage.

Probability of 3/3 rays being criticals:
0.2^3 = 0.008, 5670 damage.

Average weighted damage against a target with no fortification:
1417.5*0.512 + 2835*0.384 + 4252.5*0.096 + 5670*0.008 = 2268.

However, keep in mind that this value was calculated with no advantages on attack rolls. by using Bit of Luck + Fortune (Shaman) + Fortune (Witch) + Brilliant Inspiration you can roll attack 5 times total per ray, which skyrockets your critchance. I'm not going to calculate this and the case with fortification, because it's tedious, but the important thing is that we know the average weighted damage limits and the ray caster is going to come out on top in any case.

Whether you want to play an AoE damage dealer or a ray caster depends on how much you value damage spread over many targets. Personally, I don't value it highly, because you want to kill at least one enemy with every action, not spend the action wounding many enemies. For this reason I do not think AoE damage dealers are better than ray casters or even good.

[MechaTC]

Originally posted by talemore:

I will not try to sell you when you already made your mind. Forget about the blaster caster. It's not to find the answer by someone telling you how to play the game.

My English probably isn't that good, because this is pretty much the opposite of what I meant. I didn't make my mind about blaster casters. It frustrates he that I can't make it work, no matter the mythic path or class, yet making a bunch of guys with knives and solid teamwork can delete mythic demons in a flash. The title of this thread wasn't supposed to say "blasters are trash, try and disprove me", but rather "I seem to miss aomething important, please explain it to me"

Originally posted by MjKorz:

First of all, spell penetration is a meaningless stat starting from chapter 3, because you can easily stack enough of it to virtually never fail on any mythic path that does not merge spellbooks including Trickster.

Secondly, AoE direct damage dealing spellcasters will always lack single target damage compared to ray casters, because AoE spells do not crit and bonus critical damage constitutes a good chunk of a ray caster's weighted average damage, not to mention a huge chunk of a ray caster's damage who can guarantee criticals (Trickster via Trick Fate).

Take a Lich with CL40 Evocation spells as an example. By using favoriteBolstered-favoriteEmpowered-favoriteMaximized Chain Lightning converted into fire and shooting it at a target made vulnerable to fire while having +6 damage/die from draconic bloodlines and items, the spell can inflict 1260 points of damage on the primary target and 420 damage on secondary targets:
(6 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 2)*40*1.5*1.5 = 1260 (primary),
(6 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 2)*40*1.5*0.5 = 420 (secondary).

However, this assumes that the target will never succeed on its Reflex save, which can be arranged via combination of Evocation DC stacking and using Touch of Law on the target to eliminate any chance of it rolling a natural 20.

However, if the target has Improved Evasion, he will take only half the damage even on a failed save: 1260*0.5 = 630.


Now, take a ray caster with those same +6 damage/die and shoot a favoriteBolstered-favoriteEmpowered-favoriteMaximized CL19 Hellfire Ray at a target vulnerable to fire:
(6 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 2)*15*1.5*1.5*3 = 1417.5 damage total from all 3 rays.
472.5 damage from 1 ray.

Looks comparable, but keep in mind that this is without taking into account critical hits. If we do that, things become vastly different.

If we assume that all rays are guaranteed to crit via Trick Fate, Hellfire Ray damage becomes:
(6 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 2)*15*1.5*1.5*3*4 = 5670 damage total from all 3 rays.
1890 damage from 1 ray.

This damage, however, does not take into account 50% fortification. The average weighted damage against such a target would be simply 5670*4*(0.5^3) = 5670*0.5 = 2835.

So in the best-worst case scenario (guaranteed crits vs 50% fortification), a ray caster is going to deliver x2.25 the single target damage on average. In the absolute best case scenario against targets with no fortification, the ray caster will deliver x4.5 the single target damage.


It is also possible to calculate intermediate cases for Hellfire Ray average weighted damage, which will look less impressive, especially against fortified targets.

Due to Loremaster being able to pick Trickster feats on any mythic path, a ray caster can reach a 17-20/x3 critical profile. The probability of any of the 3 rays being a critical is 0.2.

Probability of 0/3 rays being criticals, total damage per cast:
0.8^3 = 0.512, 1417.5 damage.

Probability of 1/3 rays being a critical:
0.2*(0.8^2)*3 = 0.384, 1890 + 472.5*2 = 2835 damage.

Probability of 2/3 rays being criticals:
(0.2^2)*0.8*3 = 0.096, 1890*2 + 472.5 = 4252.5 damage.

Probability of 3/3 rays being criticals:
0.2^3 = 0.008, 5670 damage.

Average weighted damage against a target with no fortification:
1417.5*0.512 + 2835*0.384 + 4252.5*0.096 + 5670*0.008 = 2268.

However, keep in mind that this value was calculated with no advantages on attack rolls. by using Bit of Luck + Fortune (Shaman) + Fortune (Witch) + Brilliant Inspiration you can roll attack 5 times total per ray, which skyrockets your critchance. I'm not going to calculate this and the case with fortification, because it's tedious, but the important thing is that we know the average weighted damage limits and the ray caster is going to come out on top in any case.

Whether you want to play an AoE damage dealer or a ray caster depends on how much you value damage spread over many targets. Personally, I don't value it highly, because you want to kill at least one enemy with every action, not spend the action wounding many enemies. For this reason I do not think AoE damage dealers are better than ray casters or even good.

Thanks a ton for that extensive analysis! For whatever reason I didn't even try to go for rays. This, plus going for triple metamagic seemed too expensive to me. Like... Without Abundant Spellcasting casters have so little spells, which is further worsened by using ray spells

Then again, I'm mostly playing Midnight Isles mode. Those are much more restricting when it comes to long rests. This, plus in rogue-like mode spell penetration is still a major issue. My current run features Trickster Kineticist MC, and boy, oh, boy, he can't penetrate crap, even with Greater Spell Pen and Mythic Pen!

So... Choose Trickster mythic path, get triple favourite metagic, get all crit feats for rays... Should give this a shot. Thanks!

Edit: Just wondering, what are your opinions on save-or-die spells like Phantasmal Killer or Wierd? Is it possible to make them work by jacking up DC and putting fav Persistent on it?

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by MechaTC:

Thanks a ton for that extensive analysis! For whatever reason I didn't even try to go for rays. This, plus going for triple metamagic seemed too expensive to me. Like... Without Abundant Spellcasting casters have so little spells, which is further worsened by using ray spells

Then again, I'm mostly playing Midnight Isles mode. Those are much more restricting when it comes to long rests. This, plus in rogue-like mode spell penetration is still a major issue. My current run features Trickster Kineticist MC, and boy, oh, boy, he can't penetrate crap, even with Greater Spell Pen and Mythic Pen!

So... Choose Trickster mythic path, get triple favourite metagic, get all crit feats for rays... Should give this a shot. Thanks!

Try ElementalSpecialist10/X-bloodedSorc1/Loremaster9 so that you get conversion of Hellfire Ray into pure fire which enables the x1.5 damage multiplier on targets affected by Flame Curse, Red+Brass+Gold draconic bloodlines from 2 x-blooded sorc bloodlines and one Second Bloodline mythic ability, as well as critfeat choices from Loremaster secrets that ignore any requirements including 8BAB.

[Azure-Ghost]

don't know if it still works (haven't read anything that says otherwise) but the allied spellcaster teamwork feat (used to) stack indefinitly giving +2 to concentration and spell penetration checks for every ally who has it within range. I used that for a Azata Caster in the past with the Superpower to share teamwork feats with your whole party (including pets)
Azata also gets favourable magic making enemies reroll their saves and take the worse result (and if they still manage to make the roll the damage is only reduced by 25% instead of 50%), Zippy Magic (creature targeted spells hit another target within 30feet and deal some minor bonus damage (2d6+mythic rank), as well as a mythic spell(lvl6) that refreshes all non mythic spellslots up to level 5 (and another lvl 7 one that restores all up to lvl 7 oh and a lvl 5 one to restore all abilities like grenade uses or domain powers and all those spells are partywide)

You won't get as high damage as Azata though as there are no merged spellbooks and most mythic spells are more supportive.

[gmwaddington]

An Angel/Oracle makes a good Blaster/Caster: Plenty of castings of Storm of Justice, which goes great damage.

[Azure-Ghost]

Originally posted by gmwaddington:

An Angel/Oracle makes a good Blaster/Caster: Plenty of castings of Storm of Justice, which goes great damage.

and totally ignores spell resistance (same with singletarget bolt of justice)

[Kinoringan]

Use ray for single target and aoe for mobs. A sorcerer should have enough slots for all the aoe/ray spells they want. Assuming they don't go out and take those cc/buff/debuff spells. Use nenio or other characters for those cc/buff/debuff spells.

I assume you know all the feats/mythic for dc/sr. Don't forget to take ascended elements.

Buy every single items that improve your cl/dc/sr.

Keep the covenant of the inheritor for yourself. Don't give it to the queen.

[gmwaddington]

My Angel/Oracle can cast Storm of Justice as a swift action, have his wolf make a full move, and then make a full attack with Dawnflower's Kiss (+5 holy scimitar).

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by gmwaddington:

An Angel/Oracle makes a good Blaster/Caster: Plenty of castings of Storm of Justice, which goes great damage.

Post your single round solo unfair Deskari kill then.

Originally posted by gmwaddington:

My Angel/Oracle can cast Storm of Justice as a swift action, have his wolf make a full move, and then make a full attack with Dawnflower's Kiss (+5 holy scimitar).

You forgot the important part: you also deal no damage.

[IRuleAll]

you must not have tried a pure caster lich or angel if you think casters are weak. the last lich i played, he was so powerful, that even on unfair he pretty much solo'd every fight before anyone else did anything.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by IRuleAll:

you must not have tried a pure caster lich or angel if you think casters are weak. the last lich i played, he was so powerful, that even on unfair he pretty much solo'd every fight before anyone else did anything.

Let's see your "powerful Lich" damage numbers.

For comparison, this is a literally naked character who is lacking +3 damage/die from items:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2919895181

Now show yours.

[atm]

An interesting twist on the blaster, is to play a Magus. Yes, I know. Bear with me.

1) What can't Maguses (Magi?) do that other blasters CAN:
-They only learn L6 spells (without trickster or legend shenanegans).

-They can't directly use metamagic on hellfire ray, since hellfire ray is the max level they can cast, so they don't have higher slots to put empowered or maximized versions in. You can get around this, though (see below).



2) What can Maguses do that other classes CAN'T (and here it gets interesting):
-You can take up to two bloodlines as an Eldritch Scion, for +2 damage per die. (Sorcerers get this of course, but other caster's can't).

-You can cast in armor, so can benefit from the elemental armor from Wintersun that gives +1 damage per die to elemental spells. Other arcane casters have to take feats for this.

-You can guarantee you will target flat footed with Prescient Strike, which works just as well with rays as it does with weapons. Arcane Tricksters get a weaker version of this ability, for heavy investment, while it's easy and plentiful for a magus. Hitting flat-footed pairs with the fact your blaster spells are touch to mean you are hitting flat-footed touch, which allows you to hit fear-immune, invisible-seeing bosses like Playful Darkess even without being buffed to the eyeballs. It also guarantees you will sneak attack, if you've picked up a way to do that.

-On a similar note, you have +5 more AB than a pure wizard, witch, or arcanist. You can also get your intelligence bonus added to attack with another magus arcana, which is unique to magus.

-You can use magus arcana to empower, maximize, and/or quicken any spell, which paired with rods means 6x maximized empowered hellfire rays per rest, and with further rods, some number of just maximized or just empowered. 6 full-power hellfire rays is plenty if you are using them on bosses, especially if you are a trickster or went trickster to legend and are hitting for 1-3k per cast (Deskari, for reference, has a bit less than 2k health, so can be 1-shotted by a well designed ray blaster). I never see people use these arcana on builds, but having tried it I can say it is definitely viable for fighting the worst bosses. You are limited in your number of max-power casts, but most mobs won't need them.

-You can cast a ray, and then as long as you haven't moved, you still get ALL of your melee attacks, due to the spell combat class feature. In some ways, that makes you two characters in one, since you can get get all the attacks of a martial, minus nothing, and all the casts of a blaster, minus nothing, on any given round.




This kind of build works best as a trickster, in my opinion, but I believe it would have potential as an Aeon as well, since you could make good use of Perfect Form to have godly stats (it's a bit complicated to extend it to 24h, but it can be done), as Maguses usually want at least 4 of their stats to be high (str, dex, con, and int or cha). Being able to buff all to the highest stat should give you around 54 or so in all of them, which could make you quite a powerhouse. If you decide to do this, definitely use an Aeon choices guide when you do, because if you fail to become a true aeon, you won't advance to mythic 9 to get the spell. You also need either Timely Assistance, (belt from Act 4, which I know works), or (maybe??) to take Extend Metamagic as a magus arcanum, as Perfect Form can't normally be extended (to get it to 24h) but it will extend if you use other means.

Also be aware that you can learn non-magus wizard spells at L19 via the 'greater spell access' feature, so you can pick up battering blast and sense vitals as magus spells, if you want to go that route. On unfair, I am usually L19 sometime mid Act 4, so you can still have plenty of time to play with these spell pickups.

Another thing to note is that Prescient Strike lasts 2 rounds, but for reasons I cannot fathom, on an Eldritch Scion it just lasts for 1 round. On any other magus, that means you only have to pop it every second round to be constantly benefiting from it (and means you can benefit from dimension strike at the same time on every second round if you go that route, but I probably wouldn't take dimension strike on a caster-inclined magus build like this).

[MechaTC]

Originally posted by atm:

An interesting twist on the blaster, is to play a Magus. Yes, I know. Bear with me.

1) What can't Maguses (Magi?) do that other blasters CAN:
-They only learn L6 spells (without trickster or legend shenanegans).

-They can't directly use metamagic on hellfire ray, since hellfire ray is the max level they can cast, so they don't have higher slots to put empowered or maximized versions in. You can get around this, though (see below).



2) What can Maguses do that other classes CAN'T (and here it gets interesting):
-You can take up to two bloodlines as an Eldritch Scion, for +2 damage per die. (Sorcerers get this of course, but other caster's can't).

-You can cast in armor, so can benefit from the elemental armor from Wintersun that gives +1 damage per die to elemental spells. Other arcane casters have to take feats for this.

-You can guarantee you will target flat footed with Prescient Strike, which works just as well with rays as it does with weapons. Arcane Tricksters get a weaker version of this ability, for heavy investment, while it's easy and plentiful for a magus. Hitting flat-footed pairs with the fact your blaster spells are touch to mean you are hitting flat-footed touch, which allows you to hit fear-immune, invisible-seeing bosses like Playful Darkess even without being buffed to the eyeballs. It also guarantees you will sneak attack, if you've picked up a way to do that.

-On a similar note, you have +5 more AB than a pure wizard, witch, or arcanist. You can also get your intelligence bonus added to attack with another magus arcana, which is unique to magus.

-You can use magus arcana to empower, maximize, and/or quicken any spell, which paired with rods means 6x maximized empowered hellfire rays per rest, and with further rods, some number of just maximized or just empowered. 6 full-power hellfire rays is plenty if you are using them on bosses, especially if you are a trickster or went trickster to legend and are hitting for 1-3k per cast (Deskari, for reference, has a bit less than 2k health, so can be 1-shotted by a well designed ray blaster). I never see people use these arcana on builds, but having tried it I can say it is definitely viable for fighting the worst bosses. You are limited in your number of max-power casts, but most mobs won't need them.

-You can cast a ray, and then as long as you haven't moved, you still get ALL of your melee attacks, due to the spell combat class feature. In some ways, that makes you two characters in one, since you can get get all the attacks of a martial, minus nothing, and all the casts of a blaster, minus nothing, on any given round.




This kind of build works best as a trickster, in my opinion, but I believe it would have potential as an Aeon as well, since you could make good use of Perfect Form to have godly stats (it's a bit complicated to extend it to 24h, but it can be done), as Maguses usually want at least 4 of their stats to be high (str, dex, con, and int or cha). Being able to buff all to the highest stat should give you around 54 or so in all of them, which could make you quite a powerhouse. If you decide to do this, definitely use an Aeon choices guide when you do, because if you fail to become a true aeon, you won't advance to mythic 9 to get the spell. You also need either Timely Assistance, (belt from Act 4, which I know works), or (maybe??) to take Extend Metamagic as a magus arcanum, as Perfect Form can't normally be extended (to get it to 24h) but it will extend if you use other means.

Also be aware that you can learn non-magus wizard spells at L19 via the 'greater spell access' feature, so you can pick up battering blast and sense vitals as magus spells, if you want to go that route. On unfair, I am usually L19 sometime mid Act 4, so you can still have plenty of time to play with these spell pickups.

Another thing to note is that Prescient Strike lasts 2 rounds, but for reasons I cannot fathom, on an Eldritch Scion it just lasts for 1 round. On any other magus, that means you only have to pop it every second round to be constantly benefiting from it (and means you can benefit from dimension strike at the same time on every second round if you go that route, but I probably wouldn't take dimension strike on a caster-inclined magus build like this).

Well, I know Magus can be a powerhouse. But you made me realize I might've hyperfocused on melee touch spells, because, well, I don't remember using Hellfire Ray on non-Eldritch Archer

It's kinda sad this game doesn't have Intensified Metamagic. It's a feat from tabletop version which allows affected spells to scale for an additional 5 levels (say, Shocking Grasp starts to cap at 10d6 instead of 5d6)

But yeah. You got me. I'm trying Eldritch Scion. While Magus doesn't have as many spells as other full casters and caps at level 6 spells, it still has tons of utilities

[atm]

Well, I know Magus can be a powerhouse. But you made me realize I might've hyperfocused on melee touch spells, because, well, I don't remember using Hellfire Ray on non-Eldritch Archer

It's kinda sad this game doesn't have Intensified Metamagic. It's a feat from tabletop version which allows affected spells to scale for an additional 5 levels (say, Shocking Grasp starts to cap at 10d6 instead of 5d6)

But yeah. You got me. I'm trying Eldritch Scion. While Magus doesn't have as many spells as other full casters and caps at level 6 spells, it still has tons of utilities

No problem - I have played this kind of build on unfair so can confirm it can work. There are lots of possible twists to it:

-Unarmored with a scaled fist dip, will give you ungodly AC if you go Aeon. You should also be able to get +7 to caster level (+3 from robe, +4 from gaze) by endgame which would let you extend per-round spells to 24h as an Aeon even with a dip. Dragon bloodlines AC bonuses can also stack if I recall (or did when I did it), for something like +11AC (+4, +4, then +3 from wings) on top of that.

-Now that loremaster works, you can dip 1-3 levels for some extra buff spells, although that might screw up your ability to take greater spell access. You could consider:
--Divine Power cleric spell, which will give you +6 ab and damage, and built-in haste, and you can extend to 24h with shenanigans.
--And/or Eaglesoul, which will give you a sacred bonus to Str, and some extra AC and fast healing, and would be welcome if you are trying to max strength for Perfect Form.

If you don't care about losing greater spell access, 4 levels in dragon disciple will cost you a caster level but give you a bite and +4 strength, which as Aeon would really be +4 to everything once you use perfect form.

Edit: A couple of other thoughts.
I think you could get away with not taking ascendant element - when your ray does 1000 damage, who cares if they resist 30 of it. Where it matters, you can use the ring that converts all your damage to force to get past even that.

Also, you might consider elemental barrage as an option, even though its been heavily nerfed. I haven't tried it but it might work to do the following:
-Drop the acid fog aoe.
-(and/or) Use sirocco.
-Blast with a fire ray.
-Attack with melee weapons, buffed with say cold or electric geniekind.
That will get you some number of elemental barrage procs, which could be several per target per round, which isn't too bad as far as mythic abilities goes.

For the Aeon version of this build, it's also worth noting that you will have some pretty high DCs due to your 54+ charisma, so you'll want to make sirocco selective. This means sirocco will absolutely OWN most enemies, and will be amazing crowd control (I used it on my Aeon hunter to completely stop the waves of dispelling/ exploding dretches in the Ineluctible Prison in their tracks, and it will knock down pretty much anything that can be knocked down).