Were heavy armor AC builds ever buffed?

[Flint Ironstag]

Its been awhile since i have played, I have been reading to builds online that sometimes refer to the devs buffing heavy armor tanking since unarmored has always been so far above it. Did it ever receive buffs?

[Immortal Reaver]

Originally posted by igor140:

HOLY CRAP! Yes, I'm obviously missing something... Can you give me a detailed list? Here's what I'm looking at, currently in the Ineluctible Prison (so I think half-ish way through Act 5?):

10 Base
-2 Size
+1 Luck (Bracers)
+2 Dex
+5 Deflection (Shield of Faith)
12 Armor (Full Plate of Spell Nullify)
+1 Focus (Heavy Armor Focus)
+4 Shield (Shield spell)
+3 Natural Armor (Amulet)
+1 Dodge (Dodge feat)
+6 Natural Armor (Legendary Proprotions)

While Legendary Proportion and Frightful Aspect do almost same thing and most of it does not stack. Natural Armor does stack with itself. (And I think one relevation gives Frightful Aspect).
You will get 2 AC more from +5 Mithril Armor (if you do not have +5 equipment use Vestment)
TowerShield +5, +5AC (compared to 4AC you get from shield)
Shield Focus +1AC
+7 Ring of Deflection +2 AC more
+1 AC DEX from 3 Allowed DEX from Mithral Heavy Armor
+6 Amulet gives +3 AC more
Shield Wall +2 AC (I am using fighter tactics, that means you only need person with heavy shield but do not need them to have feat)

Fighters get Greater Shield Focus, +1AC.
I got Witch with Lizard familiar (+1AC), Iceplant hex +2AC, Ring +2AC from act 1.

You can add Mythic Dodge +1AC

[erian]

You can get quite a lot of armor from paladin smite evil with item you find at greengates(that changes armor type of smite evil from deflection into undefined). Also some sacred armor vs undead and demons from paladin selfbuff(2 if i remember correctly). But you loose 1 armor from great shield focus. You can also get some armor from reduce person buff. If you are going paladin route you can also add 4 levels of RDD for some stacking natural armor.

[igor140]

I appreciate the responses!

The problem is that you guys are describing EXACTLY my primary complaint about this game (it was the same in KM, but this seems FAR more exaggerated): Most builds are simply not viable in this game.

I absolutely love the breadth and quantity of build options in this game. PF-- even "limited" as these cRPGs are-- has so many options and so much flexibility that you can pretty much build whatever archetype/ trope/ experiment/ etc build concept you have in mind. If you can think of it, there's a way to make it happen in PF.

The problem is that even on core and normal difficulty, you can't actually enjoy all those options; it is mandatory to build a team with a very, very narrow range of abilities and classes. And I'm not talking about just build a well-balanced party. I've been playing cRPGs since longer than most of you have been alive (I assume...); I literally waited outside Best Buy for Fallout 2 to be released. I KNOW how to build a balanced party...

... but that's not enough for PF. You HAVE to have a shield tank; you HAVE to have a paladin; you HAVE to have a kineticist; you HAVE to have certain very specific spells; you HAVE to have so many very specific abilities, that there's no point in having this many classes... and that frustrates me.

And yes, this is the part where people come out of the woodwork claiming "I solo'd Unfair with a single naked bard!", and congratu****inglations to you. The rest of us mortals are trying to build flexible, interesting parties that explore everything this game has to offer... and finding that it isn't viable.

[Raikon]

Originally posted by igor140:

My oracle/ angel is my primary(ish) tank and my primary healer... and her armor is basically useless against bosses. It gives her some SR, but otherwise she has ~50 AC in most combat situations, fully buffed.

My nudists (literally everyone else on the team) all have ~65 AC (except Ember, who still has 21 AC, because I think that's funny).

The MC still works as a tank because of all the buffs, but she absolutely gets two-shot by the meaner bosses (Bamophet, Nahyndri, other things i can't spell) when they can get lucky enough to get around/ though the buffs.

EDIT: I DO have TableTopTweaks, but I haven't taken any of the armor boosting feats, primarily because they add 1 AC, when I need something like 20. Maybe I should give them a more serious look...?

Hmmm chapter 4 Ac seems a bit low. This is my chapter 4 stats for my oracle.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2912286307
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2912286354

[Zloth]

Originally posted by igor140:

If you can think of it, there's a way to make it happen in PF.

Pththth, I can't even bind demons into my skin in this system! When are they going to do Rolemaster!? ;)

... but that's not enough for PF. You HAVE to have a shield tank; you HAVE to have a paladin; you HAVE to have a kineticist; you HAVE to have certain very specific spells; you HAVE to have so many very specific abilities, that there's no point in having this many classes... and that frustrates me.

I've seen some of that. I can't imagine how any front-line character can get through chapter 3 without Last Stand mythic, for instance. But being forced to have those character classes? Huh?

Now clearly, given the game, a paladin is going to be pretty helpful. They give you one as an NPC, though, so you're set on that front. I'm really not seeing the need for the rest.

[Wither]

Why would you even want a 'tank'.
There is no way your character, without heavily mutilate dip, could survive THAT +70 AB.

Just kit them around the area. This is why you have Seelah on horse and with haste.
They can't kill you if they can't reach you. They won't even change target after some missing attack, too.

[Drake]

That's untrue. There is only one thing that doesn't work it the game, it's a poison build. Everything else has a workaround.

I've finished the game 5 times on core with 5 roleplay playthrough, so no stuff like vivi/paladin/monk dipping nonsense, 5 very different types of gameplay. My first playthrough was a 2h axe battle oracle, and there was no tank (just 3 frontliners), no arcane casters.
I've pretty much almost never used custom companion, and never respecced. So I always worked with what I had.

Among the chars I made I had stuff like a conjurer/hellknight signifer, a dragonheir scion/steelrager/dragon disciple (9/7/4), a beast tamer bard (with a full summon party). An aldori duelist/duelist/swordlord legend.
I even made a dual wield flail shadow shaman (to simulate the spiked chain for zon khuton disciples), that is far from optimal, but still worked in the end.

There are always ways to work your builds. You don't need to have a shield tank, a kineticist etc. to be able to play the game.

The main issue is that people are deadlocked into guides and what people tell them to do and don't try to find workarounds. Like the other day some guy asked how to kill the ghosts in wintersun because they couldn't hit them wirh their weapon... when the solution is just to cast 2 scrolls of heal on them, or the spell if you have it available.

The game is not easy, but it's not that harsh.

Edit : my frontliners never pick last stand. It's not the only way to not die to big hits, temp hp works fine too.

[Raikon]

Heavy armor doesnt give any benefits anymore. it was nice when you could give +7 magical vestment to your armor, then another +7 to your shield. Now magical vestment doesnt do squat.

Then Armor takes another hit when you consider that Nudists can get the mythic feat mage armor, for up to +10. Then you get no cap on your dex stat. Then you can get another untyped bonus from a monk dip, or instinctial warrior. I dont even think a dexed out Towershield specialist could compare.

[igor140]

Well, it sounds a lot like you build your characters similar to how I do... so I definitely appreciate your input.

How did you get around some of the situations where bosses have 70+ AC with three front-line fighters? With no arcane casters, dipping, or munchikin'ing, I don't think you can get enough buffs to boost your Attack that high, can you?

There have been about five or six major battles in this game where the ONLY character able to connect with the enemies was my kineticist, because there is ALWAYS a way to target a weakness with that class. Touch spells can work, I suppose, but I don't think I've ever seen a touch spell do more than 80 damage in a turn, and that's with a dedicated fire ray build from Ember. Meanwhile, the rest of the party sits around with their thumbs up their butts... unless they're attacking each other from the 100% unavoidable Confusion effects : /

It just seems like there are some many situations where I have asked "How am I supposed to deal with X boss/ mechanic/ scenario?", and the response from reddit/ here has been, "Why didn't you take this one particular obscure subclass? Everyone knows about that."

I had a very similar moment in KM, where I could not connect with ANY of the fey/ spirit enemies, which are like 70% of the second half. I was getting really frustrated, and was about to give up, when someone responded, "Why don't you have Glitterdust? Everyone knows that's the most important spell in this game"

Well no. I didn't ****ing know that. How could I POSSIBLY have known that? The spell is called ****ing "Glitterdust" and it makes the enemies sparkle. Why the **** would I have thought to prioritize that over scorching ray for one of my three spell slots? Without prior knowledge, why would ANYONE ever do that?

And this game seems to have a lot of very similar moments. "I'm having difficulty handling X with my builds" and the responses come in, "Why don't you have Smite Evil? Why don't you have that one particular item from a random even in the backassward corner of the map that requires a 40 perception roll? Why don't you have five animal companions?" Because either didn't know any of those things... or they're not in line with my builds... meaning that a HUGE number of the builds in this game simply are not viable.

Related to this, maybe this is just shortsightedness on my part, but I tend to dislike relying on scrolls. Part of that comes from 30 years of playing video games, in which 98% of things like scrolls and potions are typically worthless after the first five hours. The fact that they're actually really good in this game is something I appreciate intellectually... but I still typically build Nenio as a support/ archer : /

Anyway, I also think that building a character "however you want"... to then still NEED scrolls and animal companions defeats the purpose. I guess it's not that big a deal if it's a buff or something, but roleplay mindset, the only character who should be using scrolls is Nenio, because it's literally her build and personality... Again, that may just be a personal thing I need to get over.

Anyway, this post (like most of mine) was way too long, but I appreciate your insight. How do you deal with the more difficult situations in the game without over-relying on "generic" strategies like scrolls, animal companions, and spamming alchemist bombs?

[Raikon]

You dont need specialist characters to get through the game. You just need to be aware of what your characters can, and cant do.

Paladins are good at smiting, and smiting relies on charisma. If you have one in your party, use Mark of justice on hard encounters.

Any character that has a doman ability, can get community domian as an impossible domain. It converts your wisdom modifier to Sacred (or competence I forget) attack bonus, and saves. Inquisitors, Clerics, some hunters.

Any character that cast arcane spells can transform into a dragon for a massive boost to attack bonus. Like my oracle did.

Rangers can get personal enemy, that gives +2 everytime you select it. Demonexperts get +10 at lvl 20. Massive attack bonus.

Shamans/Witches get hexes. lets you reroll for better result, or lowers your targets stats.

Hunters get inherent bonuses, you can get +6 to stregnth, dex, etc.

The list goes on.

[Raikon]

The only bad classes that Ive seen are, Mixed blood rager, Winter witch, and a skald dancer. Really any class will go the distance for you.

[Agony_Aunt]

Its not just a problem with the game, its been a problem in D&D and Pathfinder for many years.

In homebrew i would add DR to all armour... yeah, you might get hit more wearing armour than being a dex/wis dancer, but you can just shrug off some of the damage so it balances out.

[juzam_djinn_fr]

best pyjama tanks were already able to get around 20 more AC in Kingmaker than the best armored Character.
In Wotr, the difference exploded.
Yet, they decided to create archmage armor, a mythic ability who gives up to +10 AC to pyjamas.
The ultimate trolling from Owlcat would be to gives no more than 10 AC to armor users when they will buff them while aslo buffing in a way who would cost more than 1 mythic ability.
I trust them to achieve that :D

[erian]

Originally posted by igor140:

I appreciate the responses!

... but that's not enough for PF. You HAVE to have a shield tank; you HAVE to have a paladin; you HAVE to have a kineticist; you HAVE to have certain very specific spells; you HAVE to have so many very specific abilities, that there's no point in having this many classes... and that frustrates me.

Complete bull*#@ . Anything on lower than unfair is perfectly playable with any party composition.Even on unfair its more about party optimization and not about mandatory classes. There is optimal party composition and it consists of one tank(any type of tank that can block enemies from targeting your squishies), one off tank(so that enemies cant swarm your party), one arcane caster and one divine caster. Even that is more of guideline for core+ difficulties, on lower ones you can do literary anything.
P.S. The most hilarious was your inclusion of kineticist. Its nowhere near mandatory for any type of build. Its just good dd class and thats all. There are far better ones.

[Drake]

In the party I had with 3 frontliners, one was a battle oracle the other was camelia. For 70AC+ enemies I just spammed harm and wound most of the time.
Magi don't have the touch ac monopole and there is no rule saying a frontliner has to use a weapon to kill stuff.

Also this is why having prepared casters like clerics, wizards and druids are great for balanced parties, if your spell slots are not appropriate you can just switch tactics.
Oracles and sorcerers are great nukers but you need to think carefully what spells you pick.
Another thing that isn't widespread is actual party strategy. Like if you need a wizard for a quest, just bring nenio, doesn't matter if you kick her out after, that's the point of having shared XP. They're not just there to give you sidequests. You have more than 6 players in your roster, use them.