Building a better Ember

[igor140]

So, I thought the Dimension Retribution mythic feat (ability?) sounded amazing!

... and now I find that it sucks.

This is something I put on enough characters that I'm actually going to reroll almost all of them... which is going to be a huge pain in the butt, but whatever. There were a couple little details I'd like to tweak anyway.

Among them is Ember. I had more or less follow the Fextralife guide for her (https://fextralife.com/ember-build-pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous-guide/), and while I really like the theme of it, the build isn't working out very well.

Most notably, her only useful hexes are the healing ones; every single offensive one has a less than 15% chance to hit on pretty much all enemies. The mythic that removes the time restriction from hexes means that she's my primary healer (despite my MC being an oracle).

The other problem i'm having is that her spells (and spells in general) are ****ing horrible in this game. I mean, they're really not even worth using. Almost every enemy that you would want to use spells on has a Spell Resistance of at least 25 (often as high as 30), and if you can get lucky enough to get past that, they all have Saving Throws in the 20s, meaning that it's INCREDIBLY rare for Ember to actually even successfully use a spell, despite having both Spell Penetration feats, being a full caster, the mythic feat to ignore enemy resistances, and having both "fire" related sorcerer bloodlines.

And when she does, she deals MAYBE 20 total damage to each enemy. In the meantime, my kineticist pumps out 120 per turn (close to 250 on criticals).

So for most combats, I have her stand back and use Fortune on my characters, chant to keep it up... but that's basically a waste of a character: advantage (to use the 5e terminology) on ONE attack per turn...? A bard would be far more useful.

So the obvious problem with making her a kineticist is that she EITHER looses higher level hexes or her blast dice, depending on how she multiclasses... but I'd really like to use her because I like her : /

I already had to put down another party member that I really liked... but that person was nucking futs, so it had to be done.

tl;dr
I'm wanting to use Ember with access to hexes, fire damage, and not sucking. How does that happen?

Does the Fextralife build get comparatively better later on?

Do SPELLS get comparatively better later on?

[Hex]

Raikon님이 먼저 게시:

Hex님이 먼저 게시:

There are feats and mythic feats and items that make spell resistance irrelevant. She is the best ray caster in the game, you couldn't make a better one even as a custom character cause she is also an elf.

Daeran is a better ray caster. He has more spells, he has a better spell list, he can come with a pet, better heals, and his attack bonus is higher. Better persuasion

Nenio is a better ray caster. more feats, better spell list, can use metamagics without it being full rounds. better skills

You can also make a better witch ray user if you wanted to. Why you would do that, beats me.

Not true. Being an Elf makes her objectively better in every metric that matters.

You not liking her kit or character is irrelevant.

[Raikon]

I dont really have an opinion on her kit. I can evaluate it though. By the standards of the game, she is bad. Really bad. I like her character though. As I stated, I have considered using mods to retrain her into a useful class. Most of my games are good based. I dont really enjoy evil playthroughs. As such she would make a great addition to my party roleplaying wise.

[igor140]

No, what makes Ember amazing is Ember herself.

Imo, her character far outweighs whether or not another character can deal 3% more damage

[Hex]

igor140님이 먼저 게시:

No, what makes Ember amazing is Ember herself.

Imo, her character far outweighs whether or not another character can deal 3% more damage

If you really wanna feel like an absolute ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, mock and bully her and she will regress into a mentally disabled child. Alternatively, if you go full lawful with her conversations, she becomes an absolute monster, essentially embodies the Empyreal Lord the Crow actually is in disguise.

It's great.

[canuck250]

Hex님이 먼저 게시:

igor140님이 먼저 게시:

No, what makes Ember amazing is Ember herself.

Imo, her character far outweighs whether or not another character can deal 3% more damage

If you really wanna feel like an absolute ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, mock and bully her and she will regress into a mentally disabled child. Alternatively, if you go full lawful with her conversations, she becomes an absolute monster, essentially embodies the Empyreal Lord the Crow actually is in disguise.

It's great.

ahhh I wish I knew that for my demon run. Fun to convert both Woljif and Aru to their evil forms

[Hex]

canuck250님이 먼저 게시:

Hex님이 먼저 게시:

If you really wanna feel like an absolute ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, mock and bully her and she will regress into a mentally disabled child. Alternatively, if you go full lawful with her conversations, she becomes an absolute monster, essentially embodies the Empyreal Lord the Crow actually is in disguise.

It's great.

ahhh I wish I knew that for my demon run. Fun to convert both Woljif and Aru to their evil forms

You can influence pretty much every character, but not as drastically as Wol, Aru and Ember.

[Kurst]

"The mythic that removes the time restriction from hexes means that she's my primary healer (despite my MC being an oracle)."

What mythic does this?

[Elgroscriss]

CC:Stunlock+Hellfire Spammer+Buffs and Debuffs.

Skills: Persuasion, Knowledge World ,UMD

Level 4 Witch- CHA+1 (always from now on), Evil Eye/Protective Luck (unfair). Spells:Glitterdust
Level 5 Witch- Metamagic Heighten Spell, Spells: Enlarge person , False Life
Level 6 Witch- Evil Eye/Cackle Hex, Spells: Heroism/Stinking Cloud (for human enemies)
Level 7 Witch- Spell Pen, Spells:Unbreakable Heart (removes Confusion), Pernicious Poison, Vampiric Touch
Level 8 Witch- CHA+1, Fortune Hex, Spells: Phantasmal Killer (+Evil Eye for saves)
Level 9 Witch Skill Focus Knowledge World (Prereq for Loremaster) Spells: Cure Moderate Wounds, Remove Curse, Enervation/Greater False Life
Level 10 LOREMASTER- Secret--->Cleric: Greater Command (Halt variant, this is a powerful stunlock spell). Spells: Mind Fog
Level 11 Witch- Greater Spell Pen, Hex: Beasts Gift. Spells: Find Traps, Cure Serious Wounds, Enervation/Greater False Life, Feeblemind
Level 12 Witch- Spells: Gtr Heroism/Greater Dispel Magic (start Heightening Greater Command!)
Level 13 Witch - Spell Focus: Enchantment- Hex: Protective Luck. Spells: Death Ward/Dimension Door, Baleful Polymorph, Raise Dead
Level 14 Loremaster- Spells - Heal/Legend Prop
Level 15 Loremaster- Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment. Secret--->Combat Feat: Shatter Defenses(to be used with Hellfire Ray) Spells: Stone to Flesh, Ice Body
Level 16 WITCH- Spells: Mind Blank, ...(still to this point Heightened Greater Command is better than ANY lvl 6-8 Spells)
Level 17 Loremaster- Improved Crit---> Ray, Spells: Greater Bestow, Stormbolts
Level 18 Loremaster- Secret--->Cleric Spell: Overwhelming Presence (substitute for Greater Command Halt) Spells: Mind Blank Communal
Level 19 Loremaster- Metamagic Bolster (for Hellfire Ray), Spells: Cure Serious Wounds, Foresight
Level 20 Loremaster- a) Rogue Secret--->Combat Trick: Improved Initiative or b)Wizard Spell-->Witch: Sense Vitals/Weird Spells: Heroic Invocation

MYTHIC ABILITIES

1) Abundant Casting
2) Mythic Spell Pen
3) Improved Abundant Casting
4) Sorcerous Reflex
5) Greater Abundant Casting
6) Mythic Spell Focus: Enchantment
7) Beneficial Curse: Powerless Prophecy
8) Improved Critical (Mythic):Ray
9) Favorite Metamagic Bolstered
10) Improved Initiative (Mythic)

**GEAR**

Amulet: /Amulet of Blackened Mirror Glass, Amulet of Clarity
Armor: Haramakis, Deadly Rays
Robe: Robe of Inevitability, Robe of Seven Sins, Robe of Mephistopheles
Belt: Dex belts then Physical Perfection+6
Gloves: Twisted Temptation (Best In Slot)
Boots: Ronnecks´ Sacrifice, Boots of Freest Rein
Helmet:Headbands to Increase Charisma, Darkness Caress
Goggles: Goggles of Mind Control, Goggles of Piercing Gaze
Cloak: Cloak of Resistance
Rings: Red Salamander, Ring of Chaotic Fascination
Bracers: Bracers of Mind Break
Weapon: BIS: Quarterstaff of the War Mage
Quick Slots: Greater Quicken Metamagic Rod (Overwhelming Presence/Greater Command), Grandmaster Rod (Helfire Ray), Devouring Lust, Extend Metamagic Rod (for Buffs), Signet of House Vespertilio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErpqRegmjCw&t=760s

[revan1229]

Hex님이 먼저 게시:

Raikon님이 먼저 게시:

Daeran is a better ray caster. He has more spells, he has a better spell list, he can come with a pet, better heals, and his attack bonus is higher. Better persuasion

Nenio is a better ray caster. more feats, better spell list, can use metamagics without it being full rounds. better skills

You can also make a better witch ray user if you wanted to. Why you would do that, beats me.

Not true. Being an Elf makes her objectively better in every metric that matters.

You not liking her kit or character is irrelevant.

Elf is great for MC because they can skimp on Spell Pen. Ember can't (unless you're going Azata, which means everyone can skimp on spell pen). In order to invest in Spell Pen, she will still need to take the Spell Pen feat.

Daeran and Nenio both have better casting stats...why wouldn't that matter as a metric for a caster?

And please don't tell me you think Ember is a better caster than MC?

[Hex]

revan1229님이 먼저 게시:

Hex님이 먼저 게시:

Not true. Being an Elf makes her objectively better in every metric that matters.

You not liking her kit or character is irrelevant.

Elf is great for MC because they can skimp on Spell Pen. Ember can't (unless you're going Azata, which means everyone can skimp on spell pen). In order to invest in Spell Pen, she will still need to take the Spell Pen feat.

Daeran and Nenio both have better casting stats...why wouldn't that matter as a metric for a caster?

And please don't tell me you think Ember is a better caster than MC?

You know how ranged touch attack works, and what stat govers it's hit chance right? You know I said RAY caster specifically for a reason.

[revan1229]

Hex님이 먼저 게시:

revan1229님이 먼저 게시:

Elf is great for MC because they can skimp on Spell Pen. Ember can't (unless you're going Azata, which means everyone can skimp on spell pen). In order to invest in Spell Pen, she will still need to take the Spell Pen feat.

Daeran and Nenio both have better casting stats...why wouldn't that matter as a metric for a caster?

And please don't tell me you think Ember is a better caster than MC?

You know how ranged touch attack works, and what stat govers it's hit chance right? You know I said RAY caster specifically for a reason.

I do. Daeran has 16 DEX, and Nenio has 15, but is a Kitsune (so doesn't she get bonuses with Master Shapeshifter?). If MC isn't a caster, Nenio can also get Demongraft. And ray casters will still want to cast other things (AOE, debuffs, etc.). Nenio has her beat there.

[Hex]

revan1229님이 먼저 게시:

Hex님이 먼저 게시:

You know how ranged touch attack works, and what stat govers it's hit chance right? You know I said RAY caster specifically for a reason.

I do. Daeran has 16 DEX, and Nenio has 15, but is a Kitsune (so doesn't she get bonuses with Master Shapeshifter?). If MC isn't a caster, Nenio can also get Demongraft. And ray casters will still want to cast other things (AOE, debuffs, etc.). Nenio has her beat there.

Nenio has a pitiful amount of casts per day compared to Ember, also all the rays are Evocation OR Necromancy, not Illusion, and Necromancy is an opposition school for Nenio.

So unless you're using a cheat mod that allows you to rebuild her from scratch, she is terrible at ray casting. Also Ember has access to Hexes which Nenio doesn't even have. While most Hexes are trash, some are not. Like Protective Luck for example, which is probably the most underrated ability in the entire game.

Yes, Ember is a one-trick pony, but a damn good at that one trick.

[Raikon]

Nenio can use heighten spell with impunity. It also doesnt affect the cast time. Whereas each time ember uses heighten spell, the spell takes a full round to cast. Who can cast more hellfire rays quicker I wonder.

Edit: its also a bonus feat for nenio.

[Hex]

Raikon님이 먼저 게시:

Nenio can use heighten spell with impunity. It also doesnt affect the cast time. Whereas each time ember uses heighten spell, the spell takes a full round to cast. Who can cast more hellfire rays quicker I wonder.

Edit: its also a bonus feat for nenio.

But why would you when at that point you can cast Weird on Nenio and AoE insta-kill stuff?

You people have some weird obsession. I never said Ember was the best companion Caster. Just that if you build her as a ray caster, she works fine in that specific role so you don' thave to lug around dead weight if you wanna keep her in the party for whatever reason.

[Raikon]

You actually did say ember was the best ray caster companion. She is not. She is not the best at anything. Not skills, not ray spells, not buffing, not support, not attacking, and not debuffing. Nothing. Its not a matter of obessession. Its a matter of someone providing false information, and confronting it.