Are there gunpowder weapons in the Pathfinder Universe?

[Invisible]

Just asking out of interrest.

[hilburnashua]

Originally posted by Shahadem:

Originally posted by erian:

There is such thing as practicality. Modern arms are already on high limit of chemical reaction produced force. Thats why all militaries are testing other types of weapons. Since there is simply no practical way to increase gunpowder arms efficiency.Plasma and laser weapons have their own problems. From thermal bloom to cooling, from energy source to maintenence. In pathfinder lore firearms are just exotic type of weapon, that is slightly better than crossbows. And advanced weapons(far ahead of current Earth tech) lost against demon hordes pitifuly.

Ah but when you have magic which can augment the strength of the soldier or reduce the recoil of the weapon then you could increase the force of the projectile.

Also the advanced weapons WOULD NOT BE INEFFECTIVE against demons. The idiot who wrote that nonsense failed their physics class as I already posted. Simply do the math and you will see the proof yourself. This is a case where just because some blockhead wrote it down does not make it true as the math proves that person was totally wrong.

Such an idiot put NO THOUGHT WHATSOEVER into the reality of the situation and simply wrote that the weapons were ineffective because he/she wanted to write the weapons were ineffective and not because they sat down and did the math and worked out the weapons would be ineffective.

Wouldn't that same logic apply to making muscle powered weapons godlike? "My bow makes it so the arrow has the effective weight of a red sun and has a velocity of .99C". Frankly, magic in Pathfinder is rather weak for the effects you are imaging. Because it's a game and in order to create game balance they had to make things much more limited then your imagination would allow by throwing the word "magic" at it.

[Shahadem]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

Originally posted by Shahadem:

Ah but when you have magic which can augment the strength of the soldier or reduce the recoil of the weapon then you could increase the force of the projectile.

Also the advanced weapons WOULD NOT BE INEFFECTIVE against demons. The idiot who wrote that nonsense failed their physics class as I already posted. Simply do the math and you will see the proof yourself. This is a case where just because some blockhead wrote it down does not make it true as the math proves that person was totally wrong.

Such an idiot put NO THOUGHT WHATSOEVER into the reality of the situation and simply wrote that the weapons were ineffective because he/she wanted to write the weapons were ineffective and not because they sat down and did the math and worked out the weapons would be ineffective.

Wouldn't that same logic apply to making muscle powered weapons godlike? "My bow makes it so the arrow has the effective weight of a red sun and has a velocity of .99C". Frankly, magic in Pathfinder is rather weak for the effects you are imaging. Because it's a game and in order to create game balance they had to make things much more limited then your imagination would allow by throwing the word "magic" at it.

Well the magic is what makes gods into gods. The magic is what allows a normal human Commander to transform into a demigod. The Nahyndrion crystals are just sources of magic or more specifically a material that can channel a higher concentration of magical energy than a human could normally channel.

But that is irrelevant. We aren't talking about absurdities. We are talking about practicalities and what would be possible within the reality of the gameworld. You don't need to give an arrow the mass of a sun to increase the force it delivers. Increasing the speed it flies by even 10% would significantly alter its force since force=mass*(acceleration*acceleration). Increasing its mass by 2 would double its force. Both of those are well within the confines of the reality of the gameworld. Indeed even bows in the real world have different pulling weights as do crossbows. Arrows and arrowheads all have different masses and designs.

Irregardless of that, the question comes down to just how resistant demons are to physical forces. Clearly it cannot be infinite. So first we need to ask what is the mechanism that makes demon flesh resistant to physical force? Once we answer that question we can then determine the force that would be needed to overcome it. As we already established, magic is limited so even if the mechanism is magic that would still be very limited resistance.

What is the mechanism and process that allowed Yaniel's Radiance to cut through demon flesh? HOw does it work? What is happening at the cellular or atomic level? How much physical force would that be equivalent to? Could that mechanism be replicated on a mass produced bullet?

Or hell, a futuristic civilization should be able to produce a beam weapon that shoots pure concentrated radiant energy.

If Numeria is located within a universe that has magic then logically it would incorporate magic into its technology.

This is generally the type of discussion you don't want to have about a drama first story like WotR but is a discussion you suddenly need to have when the writer makes a bs claim like futuristic weapons are ineffective against demons that primitive weapons were effective against.

[hilburnashua]

DR is a reflection of how tough a demon's flesh is, or any other creature with a DR or Hardness value. It's not infinite. We have rules for how much damage weapons do. You can overcome DR through raw force, but you cannot ignore it entirely. Old school D&D and AD&D had a system where if a weapon didn't have enough pluses it couldn't hurt a creature at all.

What allow's Radiant to cut through demon flesh? It's cold iron and eventually imbued with holy energy, that's the mechanic. You could mass produce cold iron bullets. If you had enough money and people with enchanting feats and levels you could even mass produce bullets with the holy enchant, at horrendous cost. Could you use some mechanical means to enchant them? Not within the rules structure of Pathfinder. The closest thing I know of to this is the Runeforged Weapons from Rise of the Runelords which has a magic well that can enchant a few weapons then takes years or even longer to recharge. This is something created by some of the most powerful wizards in the history of Golgarion.

Doubling the weight of the arrow requires at least a doubling in the pull weight of the bow in order to keep the same end velocity at the point that the bow stops adding acceleration since the pull distance isn't changing. More, actually, due to bows not being 100% efficient in delivering the energy from the bow stave to the arrow. That is going to require materials which can withstand all that energy in the stave, string, and even arrow shaft. Increasing the speed by 10% means an arrow from a longbow would do, on average, less then .45 point more damage.

[Azure-Ghost]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

DR is a reflection of how tough a demon's flesh is, or any other creature with a DR or Hardness value. It's not infinite. We have rules for how much damage weapons do. You can overcome DR through raw force, but you cannot ignore it entirely. Old school D&D and AD&D had a system where if a weapon didn't have enough pluses it couldn't hurt a creature at all.

What allow's Radiant to cut through demon flesh? It's cold iron and eventually imbued with holy energy, that's the mechanic. You could mass produce cold iron bullets. If you had enough money and people with enchanting feats and levels you could even mass produce bullets with the holy enchant, at horrendous cost. Could you use some mechanical means to enchant them? Not within the rules structure of Pathfinder. The closest thing I know of to this is the Runeforged Weapons from Rise of the Runelords which has a magic well that can enchant a few weapons then takes years or even longer to recharge. This is something created by some of the most powerful wizards in the history of Golgarion.

Doubling the weight of the arrow requires at least a doubling in the pull weight of the bow in order to keep the same end velocity at the point that the bow stops adding acceleration since the pull distance isn't changing. More, actually, due to bows not being 100% efficient in delivering the energy from the bow stave to the arrow. That is going to require materials which can withstand all that energy in the stave, string, and even arrow shaft. Increasing the speed by 10% means an arrow from a longbow would do, on average, less then .45 point more damage.

Well Hurricane Bow is an enhancement that increases the size/mass of an arrow the moment it hits the target if i read its full description correctly... wonder how much more power you could boost in such magic.

Never played one in TBT so i wonder, how do alchemists create holy grenades (in not to small numbers/day) if they are not on the divine side of magic? Couldnt a bunch of Alchemists semi mass produce holy ammunition which requires less than a nade?

[Schlumpsha]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

Could you use some mechanical means to enchant them? Not within the rules structure of Pathfinder. The closest thing I know of to this is the Runeforged Weapons from Rise of the Runelords which has a magic well that can enchant a few weapons then takes years or even longer to recharge. This is something created by some of the most powerful wizards in the history of Golgarion.

Depends. Planar Rifter infuses his bullets with the essence of the planes to overcome DR/alignment of outsiders. The Graveslinger archetype can enchant bullets with ghost touch/undead bane for hunting undead in an exorcist-like fashion. And Spellslinger is a gun-wielding Wizard who straight up shoots mage bullets.

You could also go the more scientific route with Gun Chemist and Experimental Gunsmith. That way it's possible to fill up cartridges with bombs. Or to launch alchemical vials from firearms with the explosive power of black powder.

[mk11]

I'ld be worried carrying a quantity of gunpowder around when a simple heat metal spell could explode it.

[Azure-Ghost]

on laser weapons i wonder if not even the lowest level of illusion magic should make them way to dangerous to use since many of those spells work by fractuing light, dispersing the laserbeam in all sorts of direction besides the intended target.

[Schlumpsha]

Originally posted by Azure-Ghost:

on laser weapons i wonder if not even the lowest level of illusion magic should make them way to dangerous to use since many of those spells work by fractuing light, dispersing the laserbeam in all sorts of direction besides the intended target.

Pathfinder rules are strange on that point. You cannot harm invisible targets or objects at all by laser weapons. Be they ranged or melee weapons. Even if you see them yourself via true seeing or the like. Invisibility still makes them immune to lasers. But other spells like blur or blink doesn't do anything like that. Although fog, smoke and cloud spells provide cover from lasers.

[hilburnashua]

Originally posted by Azure-Ghost:

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

DR is a reflection of how tough a demon's flesh is, or any other creature with a DR or Hardness value. It's not infinite. We have rules for how much damage weapons do. You can overcome DR through raw force, but you cannot ignore it entirely. Old school D&D and AD&D had a system where if a weapon didn't have enough pluses it couldn't hurt a creature at all.

What allow's Radiant to cut through demon flesh? It's cold iron and eventually imbued with holy energy, that's the mechanic. You could mass produce cold iron bullets. If you had enough money and people with enchanting feats and levels you could even mass produce bullets with the holy enchant, at horrendous cost. Could you use some mechanical means to enchant them? Not within the rules structure of Pathfinder. The closest thing I know of to this is the Runeforged Weapons from Rise of the Runelords which has a magic well that can enchant a few weapons then takes years or even longer to recharge. This is something created by some of the most powerful wizards in the history of Golgarion.

Doubling the weight of the arrow requires at least a doubling in the pull weight of the bow in order to keep the same end velocity at the point that the bow stops adding acceleration since the pull distance isn't changing. More, actually, due to bows not being 100% efficient in delivering the energy from the bow stave to the arrow. That is going to require materials which can withstand all that energy in the stave, string, and even arrow shaft. Increasing the speed by 10% means an arrow from a longbow would do, on average, less then .45 point more damage.

Well Hurricane Bow is an enhancement that increases the size/mass of an arrow the moment it hits the target if i read its full description correctly... wonder how much more power you could boost in such magic.

Never played one in TBT so i wonder, how do alchemists create holy grenades (in not to small numbers/day) if they are not on the divine side of magic? Couldnt a bunch of Alchemists semi mass produce holy ammunition which requires less than a nade?

Funny thing, in tabletop even Legendary Proportion only increases the creature's size by one category, just like Enlarge Portion. And that is a 7th level spell. Tabletop Enlarge/LP also doesn't help with ranged attacks, as soon as a weapon/ammunition leaves the character it shrinks down to normal size.

Nothing I know of in the game will increase the damage step boost of spell like Hurricane Bow or Lead Blades nor are there any upgraded versions of those spells. For good reason, players to some pretty extreme efforts to make use of such effects and getting a +2 or +3 step increase would allow for some heinous damage. Especially from bow using archers.

I can understand people saying that it should be possible to make more powerful versions of lower level spells or create entirely new spells that you can use to make technowizardry items. I even agree to some point. But if a DM start's letting the game go down that rabbit hole you end up with a really shattered campaign world with the player's often trying to exploit their "real world" knowledge of how things work. It's because of this that Pathfinder discourages making new spells and modifying magic items. If you look at a lot of the spells in the later books they tend to be very situational or strictly limited to avoid players abusing them. I certainly remember the old days of 1st ed AD&D where really sloppy wording made some fairly low level spells do some really busted effects.

There is at least one example of a kitbashed magic item I know of designed to completely ruin a GM's day. https://trickarrow.wordpress.com/2016/05/07/total-destruction-arrow/

Yeah, Holy Water being an alchemical weapon is something that a LOT of people in tabletop don't like because it makes no sense. But even alchemical crafting in tabletop takes a fair amount of time. Not like mass produced ammunition.

[Azure-Ghost]

Originally posted by Schlumpsha:

Originally posted by Azure-Ghost:

on laser weapons i wonder if not even the lowest level of illusion magic should make them way to dangerous to use since many of those spells work by fractuing light, dispersing the laserbeam in all sorts of direction besides the intended target.

Pathfinder rules are strange on that point. You cannot harm invisible targets or objects at all by laser weapons. Be they ranged or melee weapons. Even if you see them yourself via true seeing or the like. Invisibility still makes them immune to lasers. But other spells like blur or blink doesn't do anything like that. Although fog, smoke and cloud spells provide cover from lasers.

I find it logical that truesight and such won't help laserweapons with it as the invisibility is sort of based on a forcefield that either disperses or bends light to block the vision. Divination spells or other sources to detect the target still won't remove that forcefield which handles laserbeams the same as it does light for normal sight => it does not let it touch the protected object.
only weird thing about that is how a person affected by invisibility can still see themselves without magic divinations (though i assume something like that is build into the invisibility spell in universe)