Sword saint optimization

[vysionier]

So I was reading the thread for the debate between dex and str for a sword saint, and it made me want to play one myself!

I was wondering if anyone had personal experiences with sword saint and could answer a few questions for me?

1. Do you start with light armor proficiency?

2. Can you cast spells and gain int bonuses in light armor?

3. When using spell combat, is it worth it to invest in ‘concentration’ feats such as combat casting?

Edit: 4. When gaining ac from int, does that count towards you max dex bonus on your armor?

[Mork]

1. Its possible with a background

2. Sword saint get armor spell failure

3. No, magus should use his spells to mostly buff. Spellstrike is a trap.

4. Canny Defense give you dodge bonus and all dodges bonus stacks.

[vysionier]

Thank you!

[malkavius77]

Yes people keep treating sword saints like they are magus or eldritch scions. They have spell strike and spell combat so people think they should be using them. Turn them off and never use them again. When in reality they function more like a sorcerer/eldritch knight who uses their spells purely for buffing. Then they manage their arcanas to completely destroy high priority targets.

The best way to look at a sword saint and how to build them is just to look at them as a fighter with buffs and burst damage and build them accordingly.

[Beardynoise]

So if spell combat is a trap, are sword saints better off using 2H weapons?

[malkavius77]

Originally posted by Beardynoise:

So if spell combat is a trap, are sword saints better off using 2H weapons?

Undeniably yes. A trickster SS with axe of rovagaug pretty much 1 shots most the game. Then again a properly build SS already does that regardless.

[vysionier]

Originally posted by malkavius77:

Yes people keep treating sword saints like they are magus or eldritch scions. They have spell strike and spell combat so people think they should be using them. Turn them off and never use them again. When in reality they function more like a sorcerer/eldritch knight who uses their spells purely for buffing. Then they manage their arcanas to completely destroy high priority targets.

The best way to look at a sword saint and how to build them is just to look at them as a fighter with buffs and burst damage and build them accordingly.

I’m not sure I understand, what would be the downside of taking a-2 and getting two attacks? Is it just because of the need to do it with a one handed weapon? Or is there something else I’m missing here?

[malkavius77]

Originally posted by vysionier:

Originally posted by malkavius77:

Yes people keep treating sword saints like they are magus or eldritch scions. They have spell strike and spell combat so people think they should be using them. Turn them off and never use them again. When in reality they function more like a sorcerer/eldritch knight who uses their spells purely for buffing. Then they manage their arcanas to completely destroy high priority targets.

The best way to look at a sword saint and how to build them is just to look at them as a fighter with buffs and burst damage and build them accordingly.

I’m not sure I understand, what would be the downside of taking a-2 and getting two attacks? Is it just because of the need to do it with a one handed weapon? Or is there something else I’m missing here?

The downside is you're already a medium BAB class 1hand does significantly less damage than 2handers and less reach. And with your SS the amount of attacks you get isn't their strong suit. You want to burn your arcanas for perfect strike/critical and dimension blade/prescient attack which means you want to maximize you AB and damage to completely delete anything in your path. OR you can use finnean at +3 who essentially has dimension blade build in with his heartseeker and use prescient attack to bypass dex bonus AC AND make all your attacks touch.

[vysionier]

That makes sense. One handed with spell strike is merely sub-optimal, not terrible then. I’ll take that under advisement for my next build after I’m sick of my current build; a 20dex 18 int elf ss with dueling sword focus.
It’s pretty weak so far, but I figured I’d reserve final judgment on it around lvl 6 though.

[malkavius77]

Originally posted by vysionier:

That makes sense. One handed with spell strike is merely sub-optimal, not terrible then. I’ll take that under advisement for my next build after I’m sick of my current build; a 20dex 18 int elf ss with dueling sword focus.
It’s pretty weak so far, but I figured I’d reserve final judgment on it around lvl 6 though.

Dex saint is really only useful for early game since SS takes a while to snowball and being tanky early game is important since it's the hardest part. Also dueling swords while cool are pretty much just longswords that are made for the aldori defender/swordlord and really have no good qualities about them.

[vysionier]

Originally posted by malkavius77:

Originally posted by vysionier:

That makes sense. One handed with spell strike is merely sub-optimal, not terrible then. I’ll take that under advisement for my next build after I’m sick of my current build; a 20dex 18 int elf ss with dueling sword focus.
It’s pretty weak so far, but I figured I’d reserve final judgment on it around lvl 6 though.

Dex saint is really only useful for early game since SS takes a while to snowball and being tanky early game is important since it's the hardest part. Also dueling swords while cool are pretty much just longswords that are made for the aldori defender/swordlord and really have no good qualities about them.

Yeah true, I just thought the Aldori dueling mastery feat was pretty awesome with the +2 ac and ini. Plus you get the benefits of piercing weapons for feat qualifications in a slashing weapon which is a better damage category.
Downside is that it’s slightly more feat hungry.

[malkavius77]

Your lvl 1 shield spell is +4 shield AC and does not stack with that feat. And SS gets the best initiative in the game so that's also kinda wasted except past the early levels. One could argue it's decent early game when shield doesn't last long and you don't have high initiative yet.

[vysionier]

Originally posted by malkavius77:

Your lvl 1 shield spell is +4 shield AC and does not stack with that feat. And SS gets the best initiative in the game so that's also kinda wasted except past the early levels. One could argue it's decent early game when shield doesn't last long and you don't have high initiative yet.

Well, Balls. I Didn’t consider the same source stacking issue. Shield spell was certainly in my plans and the lack of stacking makes me sad. Thanks! Won’t waste more time on this build.

[dellandu]

First of all, do not let other people dissuade you from playing the game your way.

That being said, I do want to give you some tips that may sway you back to the SS conclave.

1. If you want to do SS, go 13 levels exactly, no more no less. And do youself a favor and get Death's Consonant (Bardiche). That weapon allows you to use Int modifier as BOTH attack and damage rolls, and stacks with Lethal Focus (SS’s Lv 13 ability). Tossing in 3 (if vital strike) to 7 (if full attack) Two-Handed Fighter, and you get a triple dipping Int god.

2. Student of War make your Int as base AC modifier, then let your character spend his / her childhood in a Scaled Fist temple for a year to get Cha to AC bonus. Then you can dump everything other than Int (double dipping here as well, though up to 13 “only”) and Cha. But only if you go vital strike or Legend (20 levels cap do exist).

3. I didn’t test in WoTR, but in Kingmaker, Spell Strike is the king of full attack. Start with a full attack (let’s say 4), then use a touch spell with a quicken metamagic rod, then you get another full attack + 1 Spell Strike (4 + 1 so 9 in total). I don’t know whether that’s fixed in WoTR or not, for I did go with the vital strike line.

As I said before, it’s you who’s gonna play the game, so go ahead and try everything (pre plan + test with toybox). Don’t let us limit your options.

[vysionier]

Thanks for the input, but I wasn’t dissuaded on anything. I was made aware of a specific reality which proved an idea I had was incorrect. I wanted dex based with dueling sword for Aldori dueling sword mastery, and the bonus to ac was redundant.

I am now playing a sword saint using a falcata with 16str 16dex, 11con, 18int, 11wis, 7cha. I still am stubbornly playing with spellstrike, because it’s cool. It’s not a minmaxed build, but oh well, it works. I’m also uninterested in prestige classes or multiclassing for this class. It’s unneeded and uninteresting.

[malkavius77]

Originally posted by dellandu:

First of all, do not let other people dissuade you from playing the game your way.

That being said, I do want to give you some tips that may sway you back to the SS conclave.

1. If you want to do SS, go 13 levels exactly, no more no less. And do youself a favor and get Death's Consonant (Bardiche). That weapon allows you to use Int modifier as BOTH attack and damage rolls, and stacks with Lethal Focus (SS’s Lv 13 ability). Tossing in 3 (if vital strike) to 7 (if full attack) Two-Handed Fighter, and you get a triple dipping Int god.

2. Student of War make your Int as base AC modifier, then let your character spend his / her childhood in a Scaled Fist temple for a year to get Cha to AC bonus. Then you can dump everything other than Int (double dipping here as well, though up to 13 “only”) and Cha. But only if you go vital strike or Legend (20 levels cap do exist).

3. I didn’t test in WoTR, but in Kingmaker, Spell Strike is the king of full attack. Start with a full attack (let’s say 4), then use a touch spell with a quicken metamagic rod, then you get another full attack + 1 Spell Strike (4 + 1 so 9 in total). I don’t know whether that’s fixed in WoTR or not, for I did go with the vital strike line.

As I said before, it’s you who’s gonna play the game, so go ahead and try everything (pre plan + test with toybox). Don’t let us limit your options.

He asked for optimized SS build and STR is the most optimized for damage which is what SS excels at. Don't really understand your comment on spell strike being the king of full attack. Many attacks doesn't really benefit a magus or SS in general. Typically sneak attack classes or full BAB classes with pounce benefit the most from tons of attacks.