Heavy crossbow does NOT add STR to damage? is that right?

[MythTrip]

What am I missing, I am equipping my barbarian with a heavy masterwork simple proficiency crossbow, but NO STR is added to damage result. When I equip my composite masterwork martial proficiency bow, STR IS added to result.

I thought STR was added to both melee and ranged damage.

Can anyone elaborate?

[klionh87]

All right. So it seems that the implementation of tabletop Pathfinder seems to be very close to correct, if a bit complicated.

- Crossbows are bulky to reload, requiring two hands and a dedicated move action to do so (or even a full-round action in case of heavy crossbows), presumably because of the elaborate mechanisms.
But, once loaded everyone can shoot them, even with one hand(and yes, you can even dual-wield them when shooting) and strength doesn't matter beyond the usual encumbrance rules.

- Bows are easy and fast to "load", but more demanding to properly shoot. You always need two hands to do so, for instance.
There are actually two types of bows, normal bows and composite bows:
- With normal bows you apply your strength penalty to damage, but no strength bonus, presumably because they can't handle much overdrawing without breaking, so shooters have to limit themselves. In addition, you cannot shoot them while mounted for some reason.
- Composite bows, on the other hand, are built with a particular strength modifier in mind. If you try to use them with less than the required modifier, you have a fixed -2 penalty to attack (not entirely sure why, perhaps the string being insufficiently tense compromises the balance?) but not to damage(unless you actually have a penalty there, same as normal bows).
If you do meet the modifier, then you add it to damage, but only up to that, clearly because of overdrawing limits again.
You can also shoot a composite bow while mounted.

Seems like composite bows are more like modern real-life bows(with "advanced" mechanisms to allow more overdraw) while regular bows are more like their historical counterparts.


Now, Owlcat's implementation greatly simplifies the above...there is no loading time for crossbows at all, and all bows seem to be composite with no minimum requirement and unlimited modifier. I also think the strength penalty does not apply?

It is mostly incorrect, but at least it acknowledges that, while it makes sense to apply a strength bonus or penalty to bows, it does not with crossbows.

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EDIT: while writing the above, carashi answered and clarified to me the reason for the tabletop penalty to attack when you don't meet minimum strength modifier. Thank you.

[vysionier]

Actually, the original implementation of compound bows in pathfinder ruleset is correct, you’d buy the str rating for the bow and you’d do that much extra damage with it. But if you bought a compound bow above your str rating, you’d have a malus to hit with it for every point above your str bonus. There’s even a specific enhancement for compound bows called ‘adaptable’. As for this discussion… ya’ll gotta chill.

[Serendipitous]

Originally posted by klionh87:

- Bows are easy and fast to "load", but more demanding to properly shoot. You always need two hands to do so, for instance.

Definitely NOT easy. Try to put a nock on a bowstring with one hand and draw it with same hand and do it fast. Crossbows are definitely easier, just a bit longer to reload (then again, depends on crossbow type).

I will stop pointing out historical inaccuracies and misconceptions i think. That would take too much time.

[Serendipitous]

Originally posted by vysionier:

Actually, the original implementation of compound bows in pathfinder ruleset is correct, you’d buy the str rating for the bow and you’d do that much extra damage with it. But if you bought a compound bow above your str rating, you’d have a malus to hit with it for every point above your str bonus. There’s even a specific enhancement for compound bows called ‘adaptable’. As for this discussion… ya’ll gotta chill.

I believe it was the same with 3.5 with exception of couple of magical bows that were able to adapt to the exact strength needed (unique magic items, not an enchantment i think)

[klionh87]

Originally posted by carashi:

Not really. Physics often aren't intuitive.

If you use the same amount of joules to draw string, it doesn't matter if you have a mechanism that will fix it in place or not, it will apply the SAME amount of joules to the arrow/bolt when released. We will not get into material fatigue here.

Sure, this makes perfect sense.
But with the mechanism, once loaded you don't need to apply any particular strength to shoot. In fact, you cannot apply any additional strength.

Originally posted by carashi:

The whole "overdrawing a bow" concept is just...inaccurate. First, you you draw less, you have crap aim because if the arrow tip is too far from handle it will bend and fly much differently than it otherwise would, effing up your aim completely. You also would be able to assume a proper posture and put that arrow shaft closer to your eye, which also effs up your aim significantly. If the bow it too heavy for you, you wouldn't be able to use it properly, if the bow is too light for you, it wouldn't be able to put much of your strength into it. Don't think of a bow as some magical thingy that you can infinitely draw further and further (even if you have arms like Reed Richards).

Right, this makes sense and is the main way Owlcat's handling of bows in incorrect. Blindly adding force to something and expecting it to linearly improve whatever you are doing...never really works out in reality, unfortunately.
I guess we can apply "magic" to it though. Assume in Owlcat's universe, all bows are composites enhanced with "adaptable" and an infinite modifier.

Originally posted by carashi:

And if it is magical and draw weight can suit your physique, than same can be applied to crossbows, no?

Well...no, that's where I cannot agree. What is there to adapt with a crossbow? You pull a magic trigger with more strength and the loading mechanism stretches? Wouldn't that just cause the bolt to fall out?

[klionh87]

Originally posted by carashi:

Originally posted by klionh87:

- Bows are easy and fast to "load", but more demanding to properly shoot. You always need two hands to do so, for instance.

Definitely NOT easy. Try to put a nock on a bowstring with one hand and draw it with same hand and do it fast. Crossbows are definitely easier, just a bit longer to reload (then again, depends on crossbow type).

I will stop pointing out historical inaccuracies and misconceptions i think. That would take too much time.

No, that's a good point. "Easy" is not the right word there, my bad. Should have stuck to "fast" :)

Of course actually operating a bow is not easy. I guess the finesse required to do so is abstracted by "dexterity bonus gives more attack" in Pathfinder/DnD, and by requiring specific proficiency.

[Drake]

The reason owlcat did that shortcut with composite bows is because it would be difficult for people to find a good bow. Owlcat would have to design magic bows for every str mod. We already have issues with some type of weapons not getting enough magic occurencies. IF they have to make a longbow and a shortbow for every str modifier, the number of items would just explode.
Considering we don't even have simple slings because of the already great number of items in the game, it better that they did it like that.

[vysionier]

Originally posted by Drake:

The reason owlcat did that shortcut with composite bows is because it would be difficult for people to find a good bow. Owlcat would have to design magic bows for every str mod. We already have issues with some type of weapons not getting enough magic occurencies. IF they have to make a longbow and a shortbow for every str modifier, the number of items would just explode.
Considering we don't even have simple slings because of the already great number of items in the game, it better that they did it like that.

Totally agree with their logic on this. It would make the game even more confusing for new players if they implemented all the rules and items unmodified.

[Black Feline]

Just look at them silly grown ups playing crossbow history experts...What if i tell you that the chinese used repetition crossbows over 2000 years ago, that had a magazine and less than 2 seconds manual reloading time , just pulling a lever, and they used these weapons to obliterate their foes? What if i tell you they built meters long models that were capable to shoot spear sized arrows THROUGH a horse and placed them on top of their walls? What if i tell you they used a single metal part in the design?

[Bishop]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Why would it? It's a crossbow, the bolt's speed is 100% reliant on the mechanism, not your character.

Only composite longbows and shortbows do that. It's literally what the keyword "composite" means, like the game says.

TBH crossbows should just have innate str requirement that directly affects their base damage bonus, because logically it takes a great amount of strength to actually shoot and reload that thing. But it is what it is.

[Black Feline]

Originally posted by Bishop:

TBH crossbows should just have innate str requirement that directly affects their base damage bonus, because logically it takes a great amount of strength to actually shoot and reload that thing. But it is what it is.

It doesn't take a lot of strength to reload some crossbows, it all depends on the type. Some were much better designed than others, for some there was a reeling mechanism that draw the sinew back, or a lever
, involving little muscle force. A crossbow allows the shooter to handle much more force than a bow, with relative ease, it should have a much higher damage in game if reality was respected, they used them to pierce armors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow

[TCSyd]

Balancing Crossbows realistically in tabletop is problematic because in reality the disadvantage of Crossbows lies primarily in reload speed, and action economy tends to reign supreme in systems like Pathfinder.