how do scrolls work

[snuggleform]

I'm really confused. I was doing some testing that I can't explain

- I put a scroll of mage armor (level 1 from a vendor, no it wasn't scribed by a party member) in Camelia's quickslot. She is a pure level 20 shaman with a +3 modifier in UMD. When I hover over the scroll, it says she cannot use it.

When I right click to use it from Camelia's inventory, according to the log, my wizard instead casts the scroll for her.

So the questions I have are

- why can't Camelia use the scroll to begin with, she has +3 in UMD and is level 20 I'd think she'd be able to use a level 1 scroll from another class

- why did my wizard cast the scroll when I used it from Cam's inventory?

[Goilveig]

+3 is really low for UMD, and her being level 20 doesn't help if you haven't put more ranks into UMD. I don't know about Owlcat's implementation, but per normal pathfinder rules, it's actually three UMD checks she'd have to make:

* A DC [25 + spell level] check to decipher the scroll (although Read Magic can get past this check which in my experience is actually rarely required by GMs)
* Since she lacks the 11 int needed to cast a level 1 mage spell, she needs to make a second UMD check of [15 + casting stat requirement] to emulate having the casting stat
* Finally, for casting a spell not on her spell list, she needs to make a DC [20 + spell level] check.

So in theory, if Owlcat implemented the rules exactly, she'd have to make three UMD checks, at DC 26, 26, and 21. She can't even possibly make the DC 26 checks since her highest UMD result would be a 23.

[hilburnashua]

Pretty sure in WotR you just need to make a 20+spell level UMD check to use a scroll. I often have Nenio throwing around Mass Heal and am only seeing one check and she certainly doesn't have the Wisdom to cast an 8th lvl cleric spell.

[hilburnashua]

You said Camelia has a +3 UMD. Does she have any actually skill points into UMD? Normally in Pathfinder if you don't have skill points in UMD you cannot even attempt a UMD roll. There are a few other such skills, primarily Disable Device, in the normal rules but most of those were rolled into other skills. And I think they forgot to put in a tooltip that says you cannot attempt a UMD check without at least one skill point in it. That would explain why the game says Camelia isn't able to use the scroll and why the party wizard (I assume Nenio) did it for her.

[snuggleform]

Wow it's much harder to use scrolls than I thought. To use a measly level 1 scroll without it failing from another class you need +20 UMD, is that right?

I did some more researching, my current hypothesis is that Camelia can't use the scroll at all (even with a DC), because she has no hard points in UMD. The +3 I'm seeing are from bonuses, but she has 0 invested points. I *hypothesize* you need 1 hard point minimum to even try., is that right? Or is it Goilveig's explanation, with holy bananas 3 umd checks?

Scrolls are an interesting mechanic I'm just beginning to appreciate. From what I'm gathering you actually want your martials to have high UMD so they can use scrolls to nab personal buffs they would otherwise not be able to get, is that right? I think I'm beginning to see that brownfur isn't necessary (and she's limited to passing out transmutations anyways) to get certain personal buffs on certain people who aren't spellcasting classes.

[hilburnashua]

Hmm. It can be beneficial for martials to take a lot of points into UMD in order to cast Personal spells (spells that can only be cast on the caster, which you can not make potions of). Shield, for example, would give a melee that uses either two weapons or a two handed weapon a +4 shield bonus. And that is a big advantage. Same goes for mirror image or see invisibility.

Two downsides.

First is that the duration of a spell from a scroll is based on the spell caster level of the scroll (Nenio's scroll savant class lets her break this rule). So, as an example. If you are having a character cast Shield off a scroll you purchased from a merchant that scroll is almost always going to be caster level 1. Which means with it's 1 minute per caster level duration it will only last one minute. Scrolls are typically caster level = [(spell levelx2)-1]. These spells will also be easier for opponents to dispel but honestly most of the time opponents are dispelling they are some boss type encounter and will dispel your buffs pretty easily.

Second is cost. It can be costly to try to keep using enough of these scrolls to keep protecting the members. And you might not be able to find enough off merchants to cast them as much as you like.

Now, this is a possible third and I don't have this verified. But normally in Pathfinder if you are using an Arcane scroll to cast a spell then if you are wearing armor you have to make the arcane failure test based on the armor you are wearing, the heavier the armor the more likely you are to fail the roll. This, btw, does apply to normal Arcane spell casting as well, not just off a scroll. What this means is many of the self buffs you would most like to cast as a melee type character are Arcane. Shield, Mirror Image, Displacement, Blink, See Invisible, Gravity Bow, Lead Blades, Haste, Greater Invisibility as well as some really powerful higher level spells. I don't know if the game does the Arcane Armor Failure check for casting a spell from a scroll or not and don't have any characters that wear armor and have UMD so I don't have the ability to check.

[snuggleform]

Originally posted by hilburnashua:

Hmm. It can be beneficial for martials to take a lot of points into UMD in order to cast Personal spells (spells that can only be cast on the caster, which you can not make potions of). Shield, for example, would give a melee that uses either two weapons or a two handed weapon a +4 shield bonus. And that is a big advantage. Same goes for mirror image or see invisibility.

Two downsides.

First is that the duration of a spell from a scroll is based on the spell caster level of the scroll (Nenio's scroll savant class lets her break this rule). So, as an example. If you are having a character cast Shield off a scroll you purchased from a merchant that scroll is almost always going to be caster level 1. Which means with it's 1 minute per caster level duration it will only last one minute. Scrolls are typically caster level = [(spell levelx2)-1]. These spells will also be easier for opponents to dispel but honestly most of the time opponents are dispelling they are some boss type encounter and will dispel your buffs pretty easily.

Second is cost. It can be costly to try to keep using enough of these scrolls to keep protecting the members. And you might not be able to find enough off merchants to cast them as much as you like.

Now, this is a possible third and I don't have this verified. But normally in Pathfinder if you are using an Arcane scroll to cast a spell then if you are wearing armor you have to make the arcane failure test based on the armor you are wearing, the heavier the armor the more likely you are to fail the roll. This, btw, does apply to normal Arcane spell casting as well, not just off a scroll. What this means is many of the self buffs you would most like to cast as a melee type character are Arcane. Shield, Mirror Image, Displacement, Blink, See Invisible, Gravity Bow, Lead Blades, Haste, Greater Invisibility as well as some really powerful higher level spells. I don't know if the game does the Arcane Armor Failure check for casting a spell from a scroll or not and don't have any characters that wear armor and have UMD so I don't have the ability to check.

To your first and second points, that's why I would scribe scrolls myself as opposed to buying from merchant. Caster level becomes that of the scribe and no shortage of spells.

[steventirey]

Originally posted by snuggleform:

I did some more researching, my current hypothesis is that Camelia can't use the scroll at all (even with a DC), because she has no hard points in UMD. The +3 I'm seeing are from bonuses, but she has 0 invested points. I *hypothesize* you need 1 hard point minimum to even try., is that right?

If I remember right, the skill specifically says you must have actual ranks in it to even attempt a Use Magic Device check. Just like in the tabletop game. It doesn't matter how many bonuses you have, if you have not invested any points, you can not attempt the check.

Edit: Yeah the Use Magic Device skill (along with the 2 Lore skills, the 2 Knowledge skills, and Trickery) all say they can not be used unless you actually put points into them.

[hilburnashua]

Only problem with the scribing scrolls yourself is that you can only make one scroll and one potion a day.