Isn't daze a mind-affecting condition?

[Aria Athena]

Does Unholy Nimbus cause a new and improved version of daze, why doesn't that count as mind affecting?

[Player#2201]

Not necessarily. If the condition is a result of a mind-effecting spell, then having immunity to mind effects would prevent the condition caused by said spell.

A different example from table top: the spell Burst of Radiance is one of my favorites against undead because it can blind them. Normally undead wouldn't be affected by MOST spells that cause blindness because they are immune to "any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)." BoR doesn't use a fortitude save, it uses reflex. Owlcat, for the most part, carries this logic with their combat system.

[Aria Athena]

Unrelated, but I now know more spells that cause Blindness and do not require fortitude saves than otherwise.

I feel like I need to point out that daze is, well, daze, and even if it was cause by a heavy hit to the head, the key word here is head and I still expect it to be mind-affecting. Unholy Nimbus requires a will save. To qutote "visions of madness hounds us".

[Player#2201]

The spell Unholy Aura is Abjuration [evil], no mind-effecting descriptor, so it would still work. It is strange reasoning to say daze isn't mind effecting, but since conditions don't belong exclusively to one category (nausea caused by poison, nausea caused by illusion) - then it's a matter of balance mechanics.

[Aria Athena]

It's not the Unholy Aura, it's the Unholy Nimbus. That one doesn't have any descriptors either, but it feels like the game is splitting hair now. This feels like an oversight.

[DarkFenix]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

It's not the Unholy Aura, it's the Unholy Nimbus. That one doesn't have any descriptors either, but it feels like the game is splitting hair now. This feels like an oversight.

Not really, you're just overthinking it. Mind-affecting just means that effect works by directly manipulating the target's mind in some way.

[Mindeveler]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

I feel like I need to point out that daze is, well, daze, and even if it was cause by a heavy hit to the head, the key word here is head and I still expect it to be mind-affecting.

I agree with you here, it's silly that some effects that are clearly mind-affecting don't count as mind-affecting. But alas that's how it works.

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Not really, you're just overthinking it. Mind-affecting just means that effect works by directly manipulating the target's mind in some way.

Well, I have time to overthink it while this guy is dazing everything in a 60feet radius for up to one minute with his non mind-affecting daze, poisoning everyone with his non-poisonous Stinking Cloud which bypasses Delay Poison, and has his buddy confuse everyone with his non-confusing Song of Discord, countered by neither Unbreakable Heart nor Control Madness, plus every time I've used Break Enchantment in this game it simply hasn't worked. He also casts Thorn Body for which Enlarge Person apparently doesn't count as enough reach.

These guys are gaming the system a bit too hard for my taste. They've read all the fine prints and found all the loopholes, plus what I'm assuming to be a bug.

Originally posted by Mindeveler:

I agree with you here, it's silly that some effects that are clearly mind-affecting don't count as mind-affecting. But alas that's how it works.

At least it's how it works, which doesn't happen all that often.

[DarkFenix]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Not really, you're just overthinking it. Mind-affecting just means that effect works by directly manipulating the target's mind in some way.

Well, I have time to overthink it while this guy is dazing everything in a 60feet radius for up to one minute with his non mind-affecting daze, poisoning everyone with his non-poisonous Stinking Cloud which bypasses Delay Poison, and has his buddy confuse everyone with his non-confusing Song of Discord, countered by neither Unbreakable Heart nor Control Madness, plus every time I've used Break Enchantment in this game it simply hasn't worked. He also casts Thorn Body for which Enlarge Person apparently doesn't count as enough reach.

These guys are gaming the system a bit too hard for my taste. They've read all the fine prints and found all the loopholes, plus what I'm assuming to be a bug.

Well, as I said, mind-affecting more describes the means by which it affects you rather than the effect it outputs. So there's more than one way to stun/daze someone, one of which is to screw with someone's mind, another to smash them over the head, another is sonic effects. It's annoying for sure when RNGesus decides to make your whole party fail the save.

Stinking cloud isn't a poison effect. It's not poisonous in nature and it doesn't cause the poison effect on you. It causes nausea, different thing entirely.

Unbreakable heart should work against song of discord though, since unbreakable heart explicitly says it should work on effects that would force you to harm allies. That one looks like an oversight.

Thorn body would seem to be a pseudo-oversight. If we follow the RAW completely literally, they're right and you should take damage, since it says only reach weapons are immune... but even a 3 IQ piece of common sense would have any GM rule that enlarged weapons would be the same. The way Owlcat have implemented it, a 10 foot long reach weapon would be immune, but a 50 foot long sword would still not be. /shrug

Honestly, I don't think this is Owlcat gaming the system. Pathfinder is complex (it's a large part of its charm), there are near-infinite interactions between disparate parts of the rules. Owlcat's job has been to try condensing that down into as simple a piece of code as they can, then build a game around it. If Paizo had the slightest concept of standardisation in their work, it would probably be a lot easier... but as someone who has spent years going through Paizo's various publications, it's honestly a massive pain in the ass even in tabletop trying to figure out what the ♥♥♥♥ Paizo intended with various things.

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Stinking cloud isn't a poison effect. It's not poisonous in nature and it doesn't cause the poison effect on you. It causes nausea, different thing entirely.

I wish it wasn't, but alas, it is a poison effect, it even says so. Delay Poison has always protected me from it. Stinking Cloud is probably the sole reason 70% of enemies and their mothers have immunity to poison. His is literally the only Stinking Cloud I've come across not countered by Delay Poison, including all of my own, and I couldn't find a reason as to why in any of his 15 hundred listed abilities. But then again they were 15 hundred in total and my vision is obscured when I'm seeing red and half my blood vessels have burst.

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Unbreakable heart should work against song of discord though, since unbreakable heart explicitly says it should work on effects that would force you to harm allies. That one looks like an oversight.

I guessed as much, it's a very common Owlcat oversight. There are some effects that are listed differently and Owlcat has forgotten to include them in the appropriate category. Had similar issues with Insanity in Kingmaker and Bestow Curse in both games. For example, Bestow Curse doesn't add the "Bestow Curse" effect, it adds the "Curse of Weakness" or whatever, which Owlcat has forgotten to list as a curse and things like Break Enchantment do not work. Same with Song of Discord, it doesn't add "Confusion", it adds the unique "Song of Discord" effect which also slipped through the cracks.

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Honestly, I don't think this is Owlcat gaming the system.

I didn't mean Owlcat, I meant this group of enemies. They found the only non mind-affecting Daze I've encountered in two games so far, which covers the whole map, is used 3 times and I can't even make a single party member immune to it. Then Stinking Cloud somehow bugged, Song of Discord is it's own unlisted unique effect and then when I finally managed to overcome everything else, I swiftly and expertly 2-shotted myself on his Thorn Body before I could even react. I couldn't even try to rush them, because the first thing cast on me would be Mind Fog, followed by 2 Stunning Screeches.

This encounter has made me very salty. For the umpteenth time, my time has been wasted because somehow bugs and oversights are attracted to the harder encounters like moths to a flame.

[DarkFenix]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Stinking cloud isn't a poison effect. It's not poisonous in nature and it doesn't cause the poison effect on you. It causes nausea, different thing entirely.

I wish it wasn't, but alas, it is a poison effect, it even says so. Delay Poison has always protected me from it. Stinking Cloud is probably the sole reason 70% of enemies and their mothers have immunity to poison. His is literally the only Stinking Cloud I've come across not countered by Delay Poison, including all of my own, and I couldn't find a reason as to why in any of his 15 hundred listed abilities. But then again they were 15 hundred in total and my vision is obscured when I'm seeing red and half my blood vessels have burst.

I stand corrected. I read the description and its effects but I missed its descriptor, which is indeed poison. In which case yes, it's another oversight, presumably one in which the code recognises something that puts a poison debuff on your, but not one that has the poison descriptor but doesn't poison you.

Out of curiosity, which encounter is it?

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

I stand corrected. I read the description and its effects but I missed its descriptor, which is indeed poison. In which case yes, it's another oversight, presumably one in which the code recognises something that puts a poison debuff on your, but not one that has the poison descriptor but doesn't poison you.

Out of curiosity, which encounter is it?

It's one of the weirdest ones, because the spell works fine in any other instance.

It's an optional encounter in Areelu's laboratory. Has a stronger than usual Nalfeaihvuotfkylu, which is the fat demon with the boar head and the comically small wings, 2 Vrocks and some dude.

[provokastoras]

you have to understand in owlcatfinder abjurations do exactly as the programmer dreamed they would work... not as they were supposed to work. ie protection from evil wards off from mind control from evil creatures when I pointed that out a devicer told me thats op with that logic they proceeded to nerf spellcasting till it became a blast fest. Also circle of protection from evil prevents summoned creatures from entering (thats why its a level 6 spell) so ie the swarms in act 2 circle of protection from evil should not let swarms even come close to the players and deskari's summoned swarms in act 5 would buzz 10 ft away from the group harmlessly. solid fog and acid fog cloud spells in table top reduce movement to 5 ft a round... Funny thing if owlcats team ever meets an unerffed wizard on table top they ll probably wipe the floor with the whole team. including their deities and higher beings.

In owlcatfinder...Mind effecting is different than confussion, fear, (heck mind fog does not count as mind effecting either even though it has MIND right in the name) stagger, and whatever. The spell removes exactly what it says it will and on purpose there are effects that you cannot counter at the level you meet them just to be annoying. same as restoration not removing ability drain from illusions or certain spells, or that diseases are not removed by spells but is a caster level dispel now similar to using the lore religion except that in owlcat finder using an unlimited uses skill is better than a second level spell.

wait you bought the game to play pathfinder? me too but they lost the memo.
Understand this is not tabletop pathfinder but owlcatfinder and try to have fun with the tools given to you.

Also funny trivia locusts in owlcat finder are stronger than gods... they are immune to divine damage. in tabletop nothing is immune to divine damage cause nothing is stronger than gods... heck even the demilich in the tomb of horrors was not immune to it... but in owlcatfinder you ll find things that defy gods with seer power and look down of them... Strong things like... locusts.

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by provokastoras:

mind fog does not count as mind effecting

That one does count as mind-affecting, that much they got right.

[DarkFenix]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

I stand corrected. I read the description and its effects but I missed its descriptor, which is indeed poison. In which case yes, it's another oversight, presumably one in which the code recognises something that puts a poison debuff on your, but not one that has the poison descriptor but doesn't poison you.

Out of curiosity, which encounter is it?

It's one of the weirdest ones, because the spell works fine in any other instance.

It's an optional encounter in Areelu's laboratory. Has a stronger than usual Nalfeaihvuotfkylu, which is the fat demon with the boar head and the comically small wings, 2 Vrocks and some dude.

Ah, that fight. Yeah that's a tricky one. The coloxus hits you with mind fog, then the vrocks hit you with their scream, which I've half an idea needs a will save. Had to restart that fight more than once when my entire party ends up stunlocked.

[Aria Athena]

Turns out Daze counts as mind-affecting just fine. Unholy Nimbus is mind-affecting, it's that Nalfeshnee in particular that ignores any immunities you may have, same with his Stinking Cloud. Came across others and I was immune.