Magus spellcombat not worth it?

[Santa Claus Jr]

I heard that the normal spellcombat uses of dishing out touch attacks on weapons is basically useless cause of SR in this game and that magus is just good for buffing himself with mirror images and arcane points, blah blah. Is that true? Cause frankly its kind of disappointing. Is there any way to make that viable?

Also, the -2 to attack from spellcombat, does that apply even when im not casting spells during a full action, or only if i'm doing a spell along with my attack?

[Raikon]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von lemurs2:

Your mistake is that you have spell combat active; if you click it once it will no longer be active and you will not receive the penalty,
The game does not care if you are using spell combat, it only cares that it is active.

Boy, supermunchkins like ptiro are going to cry tears of blood when Owlcat fixes Eldritch Scion; they are supposed to have bloodrager bloodlines not sorcerer bloodlines.
If you use TT tweaks and Codex you will get a far more accurate game at least until Owlcat patches things up.

I should have known better then to try to tackle an indepth issue with just a few sentences because I was tired.

You arent wrong. Turning off spell combat does prevent the spell combat -2 attack. Spell combat is quite good though, it takes quite a bit of character progression to make it non-essential. You can even do spell strike without the -2 penalty.

Here is where you are misleading though.

Spell strike+ spell combat give you an extra attack. You can even get this extra attack via cantrips spell (touch of fatigue) as I already showed in a screenshot. This is extremly useful early on. On average though poeple just dont understand how this system works.

You need to consider spell combat as a full round action. If you cast a touch spell when you are 30 ft away from an enemy, your character will cast the spell, then run up and spell strike them. Resulting in no penalty. This also results in no extra attack, you just wack them with your wpn, then you wait until the next round.

Whereas, if you run next to the enemy, cast a touch spell, after the standard cast, you wack the enemy with your wpn, then you get all your attacks. This results in an extra attack, but all your attacks are -2 penalty. Spell combat basically requires your feet to be planted, you cant be moving at all once you cast.

While spell strike specifies touch spells, spell combat works with anything (as long as one hand is free) meaning you can Hellfire ray, and get all your attacks in 1 round. This can get even more absured when you start taking quicked spell into consideration.

At the end of the day, is spell combat worthless? As per the question in the topic.

Yes and no. Early on the game is much easier with spell combat. End game, if you arent built for spells like hellfire ray, then just use transformation and forget spell combat entirely.

[Razer]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Raikon:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von lemurs2:

Your mistake is that you have spell combat active; if you click it once it will no longer be active and you will not receive the penalty,
The game does not care if you are using spell combat, it only cares that it is active.

Boy, supermunchkins like ptiro are going to cry tears of blood when Owlcat fixes Eldritch Scion; they are supposed to have bloodrager bloodlines not sorcerer bloodlines.
If you use TT tweaks and Codex you will get a far more accurate game at least until Owlcat patches things up.

I should have known better then to try to tackle an indepth issue with just a few sentences because I was tired.

You arent wrong. Turning off spell combat does prevent the spell combat -2 attack. Spell combat is quite good though, it takes quite a bit of character progression to make it non-essential. You can even do spell strike without the -2 penalty.

Here is where you are misleading though.

Spell strike+ spell combat give you an extra attack. You can even get this extra attack via cantrips spell (touch of fatigue) as I already showed in a screenshot. This is extremly useful early on. On average though poeple just dont understand how this system works.

You need to consider spell combat as a full round action. If you cast a touch spell when you are 30 ft away from an enemy, your character will cast the spell, then run up and spell strike them. Resulting in no penalty. This also results in no extra attack, you just wack them with your wpn, then you wait until the next round.

Whereas, if you run next to the enemy, cast a touch spell, after the standard cast, you wack the enemy with your wpn, then you get all your attacks. This results in an extra attack, but all your attacks are -2 penalty. Spell combat basically requires your feet to be planted, you cant be moving at all once you cast.

While spell strike specifies touch spells, spell combat works with anything (as long as one hand is free) meaning you can Hellfire ray, and get all your attacks in 1 round. This can get even more absured when you start taking quicked spell into consideration.

At the end of the day, is spell combat worthless? As per the question in the topic.

Yes and no. Early on the game is much easier with spell combat. End game, if you arent built for spells like hellfire ray, then just use transformation and forget spell combat entirely.

I think the part where you need to build for spells to make them even marginally useful is what bites this class. This game has such stacked resistances that you need to focus on a specific thing to be of use. You can't be a spellcaster and a melee monster (unless you go Angel I guess) But this class specifically is hurt because it's a hybrid class which is pushed to not be much of a hybrid. I like how it is flexible and cool RP wise. I don't like how the game forces stuff on you. Puts a damper on things at times.

[malkavius77]

If you want to play a magus that casts just go all in on Eldritch Scion spell pen /ascended electricity/ elemental barrage. Spellstrike and spell combat work well with them and they can do some good damage once you start rolling. I've played them a couple times on normal and core and they worked well, but might struggle on higher difficulties. Sword Saints I've played probably a dozen times since kingmaker with various builds. Best bet with them is to just pretend spellstrike and spell combat don't exist because outside of maybe the very early game and using shocking grasp scrolls they just don't mesh with the class. Treat a SS like a fighter that can buff and do absurd burst damage with their arcane pool, while also being tankier without even going dex.

[Aria Athena]

I think the way Spell Strike works in the game is like this. Say you have 3 attacks. If you only use Spell Strike, you will cast the spell and do 1 attack this round. If you use Spell Strike in concert with Spell Combat, you'll take a -2 but also make 4 attacks. While I use it somewhat often, I never pay attention to it, so I'll have to test it again.

[Goilveig]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Raikon:

What do you think happened in the above photos exactly. I casted touch of fatigue, and hit the enemy with my longsword. Touch of fatigue was channeled through the sword and hit the enemy. Attack 1 of 2.

Then I got my melee attack per spell combat, attack 2 of 2. Literally the photos are right there. Spell strike.

Spell combat penalties apply to all attacks that round. So yes, if you use spell combat and spell strike together, you take spell combat's -2 to hit on all attacks, even the free spell strike attack. But using spell strike on its own - which, for example, you'd do on any round in which you need to move more than 5 feet or otherwise use some kind of move action - and you won't take the penalty.

[Goilveig]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Aria Athena:

I think the way Spell Strike works in the game is like this. Say you have 3 attacks. If you only use Spell Strike, you will cast the spell and do 1 attack this round. If you use Spell Strike in concert with Spell Combat, you'll take a -2 but also make 4 attacks. While I use it somewhat often, I never pay attention to it, so I'll have to test it again.

That's the way it should work, assuming the spell you cast is a touch spell that you're delivering with the weapon (using spell strike); otherwise you'd get the spell and then 3 attacks.

[Raikon]

Magus is still a fun archetype, but yeah spells kinda suck in this game tbh. I know ill probably recieve hate mail from MJ over this stance.

Compared to other games of the same type:
tyranny
pillars of eternity
divinity original sin

I felt like a powerful caster in those games, fireball was hefty and satisfying. While I love wrath, casting fireball is like you enjoy tormenting yourself. Seeing resisted, or reduced is crap city.

[Aria Athena]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Raikon:

Magus is still a fun archetype, but yeah spells kinda suck in this game tbh. I know ill probably recieve hate mail from MJ over this stance.

Compared to other games of the same type:
tyranny
pillars of eternity
divinity original sin

I felt like a powerful caster in those games, fireball was hefty and satisfying. While I love wrath, casting fireball is like you enjoy tormenting yourself. Seeing resisted, or reduced is crap city.

Compared to Tyranny, spells in every single game suck. In Wrath it takes way more than it should to be a competent caster. Trying to kill all the Vescavor swarms in this game with your limited casts at level 6 is just bs. 3 bolstered fireballs, 3 maximized and one of them may still survive. Yes, my Arcane Trickster will spread pain...eventually.

[Razer]

What I don't understand though is how Spellstrike is interpretted. Now I may be wrong, I'm not an expert. But from the PF rulebook:

"In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action."

Spellstrike uses a standard action to cast a spell and then allows a free attack to deliver this spell. From the rulebook:

"At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell."

So the way I read this is no you don't get your attacks this round, you get to cast a spell this round and then gian a free attack to deliver it. So if you have 3 attacks per round you sacrifice these 3 attacks to cast a spell and use a free attack to deliver it.

From all that, if the game gives you an "extra" attack, say you cast a spell and get to do 4 attacks it's not in line with Pathfinder rules.

[Aria Athena]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Razer:

So the way I read this is no you don't get your attacks this round, you get to cast a spell this round and then gian a free attack to deliver it. So if you have 3 attacks per round you sacrifice these 3 attacks to cast a spell and use a free attack to deliver it.

From all that, if the game gives you an "extra" attack, say you cast a spell and get to do 4 attacks it's not in line with Pathfinder rules.

Using Spell Combat allows you to cast a spell and do a full round attack. If you use it in concert with Spell Strike you will cast a melee touch spell and gain a free attack to deliver it, and then proceed to do a full attack.

[Razer]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Aria Athena:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Razer:

So the way I read this is no you don't get your attacks this round, you get to cast a spell this round and then gian a free attack to deliver it. So if you have 3 attacks per round you sacrifice these 3 attacks to cast a spell and use a free attack to deliver it.

From all that, if the game gives you an "extra" attack, say you cast a spell and get to do 4 attacks it's not in line with Pathfinder rules.

Using Spell Combat allows you to cast a spell and do a full round attack. If you use it in concert with Spell Strike you will cast a melee touch spell and gain a free attack to deliver it, and then proceed to do a full attack.

I see. It's Spell Combat that makes it possible. I thought I was missing something. So you'd need to take a -AB hit, have a touch spell available and lose 1.5 str bonus for an extra attack. I guess if you stack bonusses like Elemental Barage it can be ok.

[Raikon]

there is always a touch spell available. You can use touch of fatigue infinite number of times per rest. Its a lvl 0 spell.

Not sure about losing 1.5 times your stregnth, that could actually be true. It wouldnt really matter early game though, when its the most useful. Things not to do though, dont use spell strike and female serpant demon form, or balor form. No NO NO NO. Instant killing the enemy is fun, but not when it nearly crashes your game.

[Raikon]

Because keep in mind that the way spell combat works, is that your cast is a standard action, 3.5 seconds I think, or 2.5 I cant remember 100%. Then every attack you have is made in the remaining 2.5 second. It can be funny to watch thou. But at that point your probably well past utilizing spell combat.

[Razer]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Raikon:

there is always a touch spell available. You can use touch of fatigue infinite number of times per rest. Its a lvl 0 spell.

Not sure about losing 1.5 times your stregnth, that could actually be true. It wouldnt really matter early game though, when its the most useful. Things not to do though, dont use spell strike and female serpant demon form, or balor form. No NO NO NO. Instant killing the enemy is fun, but not when it nearly crashes your game.

ah ok you could use a cantrip. Still lose time in RtwP because it really seems to me that rounds do not have a fixed duration in this game for some bogus reason.
The loss of STR bonus is there because Spell Combat only works if you have one hand free. If you wield a one handed weapon this forces you to wield it one handed, while it otherwise would let you two hand it automatically. So the STR bonus is definitely lost. I don't know if disabling Spell Combat before the actual attacks grants the STR bonus. I don't know how that works in combat or in PnP for that matter.

[Raikon]

I havent noticed any loss in time. I have quite the hours into this game and it has been consistant from my standpoint. Thats not to say there isnt efficiency loss. In particular with an enemy dying as your casting a spell, thats effectively a round wasted. Or not being at a proper distance and getting attacked of oppurtunitied.

It definately has downsides and flaws, still its not like your tearing through enemies at low level.