What can substitute Blind Fight in terms of defences?

[Tao314zdin]

So far it seems the following should work to avoid getting concealed attacker an upper hand:
-Foresight
-Blindsight
-Tremmorsense
-Uncanny Dodge

Is there anything else? Also the above should all work, right?

[Mindeveler]

True seeing and echolocation to suppress all concealment bonuses in the first place?

[Occultist]

Originally posted by Mindeveler:

True seeing and echolocation to suppress all concealment bonuses in the first place?

True seeing sometimes doesn't work. I did some research and some people mentioned innate concealment or w/e it is called can ignore true seeing but i've never seen unique buffs or effects on such enemies, just classic displacement, not even 'Blink'-spell. But Glitterdust spell works against those.

So whether it's a bug or intentional, I dunno.

[Tao314zdin]

Originally posted by Mindeveler:

True seeing and echolocation to suppress all concealment bonuses in the first place?

I though True Seeing only works against specific spells like Mirror Image because apparently a lot of concealment although clearly magical (there is not physical obstacle appearing to block the vision) is not counted as magic.

[Occultist]

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

So far it seems the following should work to avoid getting concealed attacker an upper hand:
-Foresight
-Blindsight
-Tremmorsense
-Uncanny Dodge

Is there anything else? Also the above should all work, right?

Rage power - Scent
Murmurs of Earth - Oread

[Mindeveler]

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

I though True Seeing only works against specific spells like Mirror Image because apparently a lot of concealment although clearly magical (there is not physical obstacle appearing to block the vision) is not counted as magic.

TS suppresses all illusion concealment (be in greater invis, displacement or mirror image).
At least it should because I've heard the devs messed it up lately.

Illusion concealment is like 95% of cases. There are other sources, but they're extremely rare.
Some of them, like bad weather, should be bypassable with echolocation but I'm not sure it's even a thing in wotr.
Then there are also "miss chance" effects like aspect of areshkagal that cannot be bypassed at all.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Originally posted by Mindeveler:

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

I though True Seeing only works against specific spells like Mirror Image because apparently a lot of concealment although clearly magical (there is not physical obstacle appearing to block the vision) is not counted as magic.

TS suppresses all illusion concealment (be in greater invis, displacement or mirror image).
At least it should because I've heard the devs messed it up lately.

Illusion concealment is like 95% of cases. There are other sources, but they're extremely rare.
Some of them, like bad weather, should be bypassable with echolocation but I'm not sure it's even a thing in wotr.
Then there are also "miss chance" effects like aspect of areshkagal that cannot be bypassed at all.

TS should bypass but most of the time it does not.
I am unsure if it is just broken, or there is a hidden dice roll for your true seeing vs the mirror image/blur/vanish/invisibility and the like.
Just like how sometimes enemies just do not get out of their "invisibility" purple thingie, after they attack.
//not related to topic: There is also a bug with the shirt that lets you do the same elemental attack as you were attacked by. Basicly it will constantly use the same elemental attack all the time making it extremely useless in most cases.(Allthough getting a shocking grasp and Nenio attacking Ember can be put to a good use, like with Flame Snake)

random rant:
I would say the game in many cases is terribly broken system wise, which is a shame because the story is interesting, but having to constantly repeat the same fights, just because you need to figure out which spell MIGHT work, or how you can surround an enemy allowing it not to overrun or move...is bad.//

Also i own the game, just on another platform.

[Mindeveler]

Originally posted by Nordil(Hun):

TS should bypass but most of the time it does not.
I am unsure if it is just broken

it probably is.
It used to bypass all illusion concealment like a charm but afaik it was bugged lately.

[gmwaddington]

I think True Seeing has been bugged since game launch. Various fixes have been claimed, but I don't think any have been truly successful.

[Tao314zdin]

Originally posted by Mindeveler:

Originally posted by Nordil(Hun):

TS should bypass but most of the time it does not.
I am unsure if it is just broken

it probably is.
It used to bypass all illusion concealment like a charm but afaik it was bugged lately.

I'm curious though, if that would counter all the illusion-related concealments (which is like most of them) - would not it be giga-unbalanced comparing to 3-feats+perception-15 that you need for Blind-Fight?

Or am I missing something here?

[Mindeveler]

Originally posted by gmwaddington:

I think True Seeing has been bugged since game launch. Various fixes have been claimed, but I don't think any have been truly successful.

I didn't have any issues with it in my last 2 games where I used it extensively.
But they happened before the last couple of patches.

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

Or am I missing something here?

Nope.
Blind fight is not really worth it, except for gaze immunity (but hardly any enemies use gazes in wotr, and gazes of a lot of enemies in KM didn't count as gazes and bypassed that immunity) and the final fight where bypassing displacement with TS will make you face Areshkagal's aspect that you can do nothing about, while not having TS but having BF and improved BF will allow you to reroll that miss chance twice.

[Tao314zdin]

OK, thanks All for the answers!

If someone still reads this and knows:
-Does tremorsense works againts winged creatures that are not flying at the moment, or just having wings automatically assumes that they levitate off the ground all the time?
-Like Areelu has wings, but never flies - does tremorsense bypass her concealment then?

[Chronocide]

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

So far it seems the following should work to avoid getting concealed attacker an upper hand:
-Foresight
-Blindsight
-Tremmorsense
-Uncanny Dodge

Is there anything else? Also the above should all work, right?

"upperhand" is vague. Is the concern that they get sneak attack, or something else?

[Chronocide]

Blinding them works pretty for nulifying the usefulness of their invisibility....

[Tao314zdin]

Originally posted by Chronocide:

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

So far it seems the following should work to avoid getting concealed attacker an upper hand:
-Foresight
-Blindsight
-Tremmorsense
-Uncanny Dodge

Is there anything else? Also the above should all work, right?

"upperhand" is vague. Is the concern that they get sneak attack, or something else?

Yeah, I meant the bonuses on attack they can get like catching your chars flat-footed.

[Chronocide]

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

Originally posted by Chronocide:

"upperhand" is vague. Is the concern that they get sneak attack, or something else?

Yeah, I meant the bonuses on attack they can get like catching your chars flat-footed.

Hmm... according to the internet, the big weakpoint of sneak attack is invisibility:

"The character must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot."

So if your character isn't visible, they can't sneak attack you...That said, not sure how well that is programmed into the game, I've never tried it.

Alternatively, Sneak Attack is "precision damage" and there are things that resist or are immune to that damage type. Could look for something like that.

Let's see, the Fortification armor trait applies there. The Stonelord Paladin has something for that at 3rd. And then more endgame, this guy: https://pathfinderwrathoftherighteous.wiki.fextralife.com/Silver+Mist

Regarding flat-footed, it ignores your dex bonus to AC and any dodge bonuses to AC....so the obvious countermeasure would be to not rely on dex or dodge bonuses. Maybe not the solution you are looking for, but that's an option.