Merceneries are good.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

So i am currently going through an other playthrough.
I always struggled with early game using story companions.
This time i hired these twins(two exact copies):
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2838029803
Enemies are dropping like flies.

I never expect mercenries to be this good.
Why is that?

[Conquista]

you can minmax mercenaries alot easier than story companions and it also helps that most players have some kind of idea what they want to do with their mercenaries while for story companion it needs abit more ingame knowledge to make the best out of them

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by Conquista:

you can minmax mercenaries alot easier than story companions and it also helps that most players have some kind of idea what they want to do with their mercenaries while for story companion it needs abit more ingame knowledge to make the best out of them

I think what also helps is that there strenght builds.
Something i noticed a moment ago.
You story companions are:
Sheela: Strenght build.
Charimilia: Dex build.
Lann/windaug: Storywise hunters but have high strenght and arent the hunter class(wierd choice by owlcat)
Ember: Caster with a decent dex.
Wojif: Rogue with decent dex.
Dearan: Orical with dex.
Nenio: Master class with decent dex.

Strenght adds damage to your melee attacks.
Dex does not add damage.

Meaning i now have 3 people with high damage, high hitchance and high armor.
Using story companions would limit me to low armor, low damage characters.

[DarkFenix]

Why is it? Because you're quite obviously a beginner with Pathfinder. And that's neither insult not criticism, merely an observation. When you're a Pathfinder newbie, you only have the base of knowledge to make basic builds work, you don't know enough mechanics to see any deeper.

Dexterity can be added to damage, via various features and feats. The hunter class is in fact a pet-oriented 2/3 spellcaster, it has no particular affinity for archery. Lann and Wenduag are both ranged martials, something that fits the job of hunter better.

Dex makes for much more tanky characters, and while it does less damage than strength due to fewer available sources of buffing, it's not low damage in the slightest.

Camellia is actually extremely tanky, she can dish out pretty good damage, and she's a full spellcaster. Woljif hits like a truck via sneak attack and innate dex to damage. And in many cases we're talking about a dedicated spellcaster so I'm not sure why you're obsessing over strength vs dex.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Why is it? Because you're quite obviously a beginner with Pathfinder. And that's neither insult not criticism, merely an observation. When you're a Pathfinder newbie, you only have the base of knowledge to make basic builds work, you don't know enough mechanics to see any deeper.

Dexterity can be added to damage, via various features and feats. The hunter class is in fact a pet-oriented 2/3 spellcaster, it has no particular affinity for archery. Lann and Wenduag are both ranged martials, something that fits the job of hunter better.

Dex makes for much more tanky characters, and while it does less damage than strength due to fewer available sources of buffing, it's not low damage in the slightest.

Camellia is actually extremely tanky, she can dish out pretty good damage, and she's a full spellcaster. Woljif hits like a truck via sneak attack and innate dex to damage. And in many cases we're talking about a dedicated spellcaster so I'm not sure why you're obsessing over strength vs dex.

Yeah i know all that.

I am not obsessing as much as i am observing.

I am aware of what you are claiming but found my experiance not matching the claims.
My mercenries do 1d9+9 damage per hit.
On everything no feats required, no needing to get a sneak attack off and no relying on outlasting the enemy with a dex tank.

Carimila coudnt hit the broadside of a barn and doesn 1d8 damage with a toothpick.
Lann fire's multiple arrows and miss most of them.
And ember buring handspell does laughable little damage.

I am sure by higher levels they would be better but this is about pre-drezen combat.
And i find that in the first 4 levels strenght builds seem far more effective then dex builds.

But by all means.
Tell me how you make story companions effiecent at level 3 on core.
Because you can do it with story companions.
It just take a lot longer.

[DarkFenix]

If all you care about is the first hour of the game and zero feat reqs, sure, strength martials will perform better than anything else. Go with two handed barbarians and you'll hit like a truck from level one. Not sure why you'd handicap yourself by insisting on a party requiring no feats or tactics, to each their own I guess.

Camellia takes a few levels to get going. She's only 3/4 BAB and primarily a spellcaster after all, she needs piranha strike, fencing grace, couple of other things maybe. Lann on the other hand, is great from about level 2, you talk as if he has a terrible stat line, he doesn't. Not sure why you're comparing Ember here, what are you expecting out of a low level spellcaster?

[forkofspite]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

Tell me how you make story companions effiecent at level 3 on core.

If you are truly interested, you should be able to find me on youtube - check out the TaoPaiPai playlist.

I don't actually suggest doing so (it's pretty damn boring - I'm not a good content creator), but it's a blind Last Azlanti run on Core difficulty. I make it to the end of Act 2 (level 10) before losing. Previous experience? Tabletop and Owlcat's Kingmaker.

If you're just interested in the builds, the level ups are in separate videos, so you should be able to easily find them. They are not min/maxed or any kind of "optimal" builds. They all keep their base classes, and make reasonable choices.

edit:
Forgot about my intro. In case you actually check out the channel, skip the first 10 seconds of every video in that playlist.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

If all you care about is the first hour of the game and zero feat reqs, sure, strength martials will perform better than anything else. Go with two handed barbarians and you'll hit like a truck from level one. Not sure why you'd handicap yourself by insisting on a party requiring no feats or tactics, to each their own I guess.

Mostly to make early game easier.
I never intented to keep them beyond drezen.
I just noticed that early on my enemies where mostly just high ac, high health, high damage(for the level) with no tricks or decent spell selection.
So i though:
What if i hired a few mercs to just be good melee damage dealers.
That way i can kill the npc fast and without many long rests.
Beats having to go through the most boring part of the game micromanaging everyone.

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Camellia takes a few levels to get going. She's only 3/4 BAB and primarily a spellcaster after all, she needs piranha strike, fencing grace, couple of other things maybe. Lann on the other hand, is great from about level 2, you talk as if he has a terrible stat line, he doesn't. Not sure why you're comparing Ember here, what are you expecting out of a low level spellcaster?

Honestly i dump her first chance i get.
I really dont like her.
She is a Better In The Court House kinda person.

[DarkFenix]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

If all you care about is the first hour of the game and zero feat reqs, sure, strength martials will perform better than anything else. Go with two handed barbarians and you'll hit like a truck from level one. Not sure why you'd handicap yourself by insisting on a party requiring no feats or tactics, to each their own I guess.

Mostly to make early game easier.
I never intented to keep them beyond drezen.
I just noticed that early on my enemies where mostly just high ac, high health, high damage(for the level) with no tricks or decent spell selection.
So i though:
What if i hired a few mercs to just be good melee damage dealers.
That way i can kill the npc fast and without many long rests.
Beats having to go through the most boring part of the game micromanaging everyone.

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

Camellia takes a few levels to get going. She's only 3/4 BAB and primarily a spellcaster after all, she needs piranha strike, fencing grace, couple of other things maybe. Lann on the other hand, is great from about level 2, you talk as if he has a terrible stat line, he doesn't. Not sure why you're comparing Ember here, what are you expecting out of a low level spellcaster?

Honestly i dump her first chance i get.
I really dont like her.
She is a Better In The Court House kinda person.

Fair enough, disposable mercs for the early game, I can get behind that idea. Then take companions once they've got enough levels to build as you please for better narrative involvement.

And regarding Camellia as a character? Yeah, don't like her, I typically take the 'direct' approach in act 3 to solve the problem permanently. I've kept her on my current run though, simply because it occurs to me I've never actually gone all the way through on her quest, gotta go see the whole thing at least once.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by DarkFenix:

And regarding Camellia as a character? Yeah, don't like her, I typically take the 'direct' approach in act 3 to solve the problem permanently. I've kept her on my current run though, simply because it occurs to me I've never actually gone all the way through on her quest, gotta go see the whole thing at least once.

Good luck.
From what i read she is just a horrible person.
My respect if you manage to get through her quest.
I dont think i could stop myself from killing her.

[Mravenrocks]

The reality is that most of the story companions don't have very good builds and even them having very high stats like Arue, can't make up for that.

You can beat the game even on Unfair with them but it requires a lot more knowledge than just hiring 5 mercenaries and giving them good builds from the start.
A party with 5 well built mercenaries that are a Wizard, a Cleric, a Bard, a Paladin and Kineticist without any kind of class dips, prestige classes or anything like that can compliment any MC of any mythic path and easily beat Unfair.

You may say "but Nenio, Sosiel and Seelah..." well Nenio is one of the few strong companions but Sosiel is super bad (the only good thing about him is that he can take Impossible Domain and Domain Zealot) and Seelah is usable but weaker than any mercenary you can build.

I believe the best way to enjoy the story companions is using the Respec Mod so you can change their stats and build from scrach, so there are like "mercenaries" but with dialogue so you can enjoy trying all the different classes like Skalds, Court Poet, Incenser, Brow-fur Arcanist, etc.

[EagleWiz]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

Using story companions would limit me to low armor, low damage characters.

Ah yes, low damage Lann
(???)

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by EagleWiz:

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

Using story companions would limit me to low armor, low damage characters.

Ah yes, low damage Lann
(???)

I dont know about your games but in my this is land:
Miss, Miss, Miss, Hit for half the enemy hp.
Miss, Miss, Miss,Hit for half the enemy hp.
Repeat until dead.
And lann is the biggest damage dealer outside of sheela early on.
Meanwhile suna and luna:
Miss, Hit for 75% damage. Miss, Miss, Hit for 75% damage.
Miss, Hit for 75% damage. Miss, Hit for 75% damage, miss.

[Conquista]

if you only want to use mercenaries for the early game, try rowdy rogue with a bow and iniate combat with them, double vital strike at the start of combat makes early game a cakewalk

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by Conquista:

if you only want to use mercenaries for the early game, try rowdy rogue with a bow and iniate combat with them, double vital strike at the start of combat makes early game a cakewalk

Thanks.

[Randolph Carter]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

Originally posted by EagleWiz:

Ah yes, low damage Lann
(???)

I dont know about your games but in my this is land:
Miss, Miss, Miss, Hit for half the enemy hp.
Miss, Miss, Miss,Hit for half the enemy hp.
Repeat until dead.
And lann is the biggest damage dealer outside of sheela early on.
Meanwhile suna and luna:
Miss, Hit for 75% damage. Miss, Miss, Hit for 75% damage.
Miss, Hit for 75% damage. Miss, Hit for 75% damage, miss.

Weird. I think Lann is pretty strong right from the start. Ofc he has no min/max stats but its more than enough to get rid of the enemies on core difficulty. I dunno how its on hard or unfair tough. With the right feat selection (prefer feats that give +attack roll at the beginning) and an occasional buff (or debuff for the enemies), he is always almost my main dmg dealer in Act 1 and hits most of his shots. Remember to give him a Composite Longbow for the STR bonus and turn off feats like Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot while fighting enemies with high AC if you miss often. On top of that, hes also quite tanky and can soak an suprisingly amount of hits in the early game.

Later in the game I often play him with Greater Snapshot, Outflank, Seize the Moment and Point Blank master. He then basically stands close behind my melees and absolutely shreds the enemies with triggered AoOs from the Teamwork Feats, prone status effect and sources like Dreadful Carnage etc.

But yeah ofc, a thoroughly min/maxed STR mercenary has of course much more potential and is generally easier to play in the early game, because he doesn't need extra feats for dmg conversion (weapon finesse, slashing grace etc.) and often even can handle penalities (like from Power Attack) quite well right from the start.