is witch worth it for spell caster?

[Diakoptes]

saw witch, then saw the hag subclass and though it'd be a laugh, about 6hs in and I am not finding it a laugh, is it sub par to wizard in the casting regard?

the plan was to legit play a hag, but spell caster with decent unarmed melee isnt normally possible without some mlg build that I don't want to read

[Dragon Master]

Absolutely. Instant familiar for an increase in abilities, hexes that can be used constantly without spell slots, powerful spells and so on.

Add in the mythic feats and a witch can be ridiculously overpowered.

[Mindeveler]

Compared to wizards/sorc, witches have inferior spell lists (which can be somewhat fixed by making them Loremasters and picking spell secrets) but some very good hexes.
They're more of a buffbot / support class than your main spellcaster (or gish).

[Sephie]

hexes are very useful. buff your group members, debuff enemies. stigmatized witch is a spontenious caster and you can expand spell list with some equipment. your build can have very high damage (bolster hellrays) and take one of the best aoe spells for controlling groups of enemies (selective sirocco through loremaster).
you gonna need to take ascendant fire, both elemental fire focuses , both spell pens and spell focuses, dip into crossblooded sorc and mythic second bloodline for all 3 bloodlines that boosts fire, all abundand casting feats, improved critical: ray, precise shot.

[Schlumpsha]

Witch and Wizard have very different spells they can learn and cast. And Owlcat didn't do the Witch class much justice by ignoring her more unique spells. In general the Witch is first and foremost a (de)buffer, healer and controller. Not so much of a damage dealer. It's also worth to take a close look at the Witch Patrons for spells you favour to have. For example, the only way a Witch has access to Haste is via the Agility Patron.

What the Witch lacks in spells she makes up in hexes. As a whole this class has some of the best action economies in the game and still holds its weight once spells run out.

The Hagbound in particular is very good as either a melee Witch focusing on Strength or a curse slinger focusing on Intelligence and Charisma. Latter because of Vile Curse that grants unlimited uses of the Bestow Curse spell-like ability.

I highly recommend the Demon mythic path for Hagbound by the way. It plays in all of the strengths of the archetype: be it martial prowess, spells damage, high DC and boosts for both Strength and Intelligence oriented Witches.

[MjKorz]

With is bad as the primary spellcaster, because Witches lack bonus feats compared to Wizards and Sorcerers and also because the Witch spellbook spell selection is horrible.

Witch, however, is great as a support caster that supports the main offensive caster by relieving the burden of casting buffs from the main offensive caster and also supporting him with Evil Eye hex that reduces enemy saving throws.

Also, despite the hex scaling getting a buff, it's still bad on any difficulty starting from core, because hex DCs cannot be buffed by spell focus feats.

[Diakoptes]

ah, thanks for the feedbacks

[rasabt]

a) you can make certain witch-subs into decent, if not great dps casters (especialy the stigmatized), but all those builds are very specific and gear dependand
b) they are great buff/debuff bots
c) hexes are great
period; no matter the difficutly. cackle+hex debuf/buffs is honestly one of the best support tools you can get, while still beeing able to cast some pretty good spells.

[Goilveig]

Yeah, witches are really about hexes more than spells. Some particularly notable ones:
* Evil Eye can apply up to 3 debuffs (saves, AC, attack rolls)
* Misfortune makes a monster roll all D20s twice and take the worst. Notably, this even works on mindless creatures like vermin, constructs, or undead.
* Cackle can make Evil Eye / Misfortune "permanent" as long as the witch uses move actions
* Slumber is top-tier save-or-die. It renders the victim helpless, meaning you can do a Coup de Grace and get a guaranteed crit and force a fort save versus instant death. Get a character with an x3 or x4 crit weapon and let them go to town.

Coup de grace did get some significant nerfs compared to tabletop - in TT, the save DC against instant death scales with damage dealt, which very rapidly reaches the point where only a nat 20 can save, and in TT you can add sneak attack damage to coup de grace, but it's still very powerful.

[Diakoptes]

Originally posted by Goilveig:

Yeah, witches are really about hexes more than spells. Some particularly notable ones:
* Evil Eye can apply up to 3 debuffs (saves, AC, attack rolls)
* Misfortune makes a monster roll all D20s twice and take the worst. Notably, this even works on mindless creatures like vermin, constructs, or undead.
* Cackle can make Evil Eye / Misfortune "permanent" as long as the witch uses move actions
* Slumber is top-tier save-or-die. It renders the victim helpless, meaning you can do a Coup de Grace and get a guaranteed crit and force a fort save versus instant death. Get a character with an x3 or x4 crit weapon and let them go to town.

Coup de grace did get some significant nerfs compared to tabletop - in TT, the save DC against instant death scales with damage dealt, which very rapidly reaches the point where only a nat 20 can save, and in TT you can add sneak attack damage to coup de grace, but it's still very powerful.

uh, so if I went hag, which trades some hexes for claws, that would be bad for casting?

[Chronocide]

Originally posted by Diakoptes:

uh, so if I went hag, which trades some hexes for claws, that would be bad for casting?

Kinda. I mean, if you plan to exclusively devote your character to casting, the claws don't add anything...

But if you want claws, it isn't useless, it just won't help you cast.

But like if you go with Str 7 (or 5), especially as a small character, claws start to look really appealing because they don't add weight to your character...

[ayrtep]

I typically play solo-core. So far i have had trouble finding a viable witch build.

Probably best would be a melee witch, take agility for haste or maybe ancestors might work well. Take 10 Eldritch knight levels and kill stuff with a metal stick after buffing yourself. Unfortunately I think a wizard is still just better, but maybe i'll try it.

[provokastoras]

you misunderstand what witch is supposed to do.
cast fortune on your fighter, cackle and watch them crit 30% of the time. 54% of the time if they have a 18-20 threat rate and improve critical. put things to sleep and so on. and yes hangbound witch is rather weak unless you really know what to do. Or cast protective luck on your front line, cackle and see something stronger than plot armor.

[Trolleur_Durden]

Protective luck is especially strong in WotR compared to TT because of the sheer amount of attack rolls your frontline will face, so much that even a character with very good AC that can only be hit by a natural 20 will steadily suffer attrition because of that. Protective luck is the only thing that helps counteract that, because the odds of being hit goes from 1 out of 20 (5%) to 1 out of 400 (0.25%).

[Sephie]

if you interested in melee caster i strongly recommend to try human 1 scaledfist/ 4 sorcerer/4 dragon disciple/10 eldritch knight/1 loremaster for improved improved critical.

[Diakoptes]

The main reason I wanted hag was for the level 20 thing, seems foolish now, shall try the stigmatised one