Thoughts on best ranged for unfair?

[atm]

I'm on about my 8th or so unfair run (trying to work through all the paths; currently on Legend). I'm in Act 5, and having hit L20 I am trying to fill out my party with a couple of extra mercs to make things go faster. This got me thinking about what is the best ranged for late-game unfair. I have tried lots of different approaches (some of my favorites below), and am hoping people can suggest something different that I can try.

On unfair, ranged has a few hurdles before they can function. They will need high attack to hit, and if they are going to do anything worth a damn against the enemies' boosted health they have to do high damage. They can't geniekind-stack, so if they are going to use elemental barrage they will need other ways of adding elemental damage to their attacks.

I believe all ranged will need to have shatter defenses (with the party causing shaken via various means), as that is a pretty reliable way to hit flat-footed against the invisible-seeing enemies in the late-game. (It seems to me that most enemies that see invisible are not immune to shaken, and many that are immune to fear can't see invisible).

The other problem on unfair is that fights nearing the end of the game get so big and so long that it gets harder and harder to play the game on turn-based. This means that a good ranged should really be minimum maintenance; having to manually use a swift action each round etc is very powerful early and mid game where turn-based is more viable, but very suboptimal in late game except on some bosses where you can still go turn-based.

My favorite ranged approaches so far (which I probably won't use as I want to try something different):

-Sanctified slayer archer with domain zealot and madness, luck, good, and a couple of other domains. This is amazing early and mid game, as you get sneak attack and studied target, with bane weapon, and can buff your attack by over +20 (by late game) while also having a 10-round luck effect, for some nice crit chance. You get divine power for another +6 attack and damage, and can self-greater-invisible. Also, being an inquisitor, they get their wisdom to initiative, so with a few additional initiative buffs can generally expect to go early or first in a round. You can take a level or three in Loremaster for some rogue talents (the dispelling one can be quite nice), or now that spells work, you could take sense vitals for another 5d6 sneak.
They do drop off a little in the late game as their damage doesn't play nicely with elemental barrage, and there is no ranged weapon that has multiple elemental damage types on it. They also only really shine in turn-based, which is less viable in the late game.

-Oracle with two element-based mysteries and elemental barrage. Seems like a strange choice, but it does (at least kind of) work; at L11 any weapon they wield becomes flaming/frost/etc from their mystery, so they will get up to 10d6 holy damage added to every attack, and more if they can add more elements. Works well with the decay spreader, or rolling thunder, two ranged weapons that have rare elemental types (acid, sonic). Now that Loremaster works, you could also take sense vitals for 5d6 sneak, firebrand for another fire hit on weapon attack etc. (Oracle 11/ Loremaster 9 could be a very interesting build with some smart loremaster choices).
Also, if one of your mysteries is Flames, you get all your fire spells empowered for free if you stick with it to L20, so with a maximize rod and with the bolster feat, you can also shoot off bolstered/empowered/maximized hellfire rays, making them very good blasters as a backup.
Their main problem is just getting the raw attack numbers to actually hit in the late game. They do have divine power, and it is possible to take spell specialization and use the +2 CL staff to get that to a 24h buff, but to get much better than that you will have to rely on others buffing you which requires some micromanagement. They are also pretty feat-starved, making the build a real balancing act.

-Eldritch Archer - is just a cool class. You can add 3 elements to your weapon, you can make all your attacks against flat-footed for 2 rounds with prescient strike, you can buff your attack by your intelligence, and you can cast a spell each round and still make all your attacks. Unlike with normal maguses, spell combat actually costs you little to nothing; a normal magus has to have a free hand, but an eldritch archer doesn't (you can even dual wield throwing axes), and they also normally don't need to move, so they play like an archer who also gets to cast a spell each round on top of their normal archering.
The primary issue with them is that they require a lot of micro to work well, and will slowly run out of arcane pool. Their raw attack is kind of lacking, and in the late game they will just miss a lot when they aren't popping their attack boosts. Still, one of my favorite classes.
(Honorable mention is a char I am running in my current game, who is 1 Eldritch Archer, 19 Eldritch scoundrel, who is playing as a ranged rogue, for the +8 to hit from debilitation, but still getting the free spell cast each round as well, so he can throw out a ray of frost or scorching ray to get the first hit and apply debilitation, then attacking with the weapon to take advantage of the +8 to hit).

So anyway, am looking for some interesting ideas for something else to try as a good low-micro ranged. If anyone read this stupidly long post, thanks!

[Conquista]

i like vivisectionist with a longbow
you get sneak attack, alchemist support, transformation, true mutagen if you don't dip and alot of feats

[Mravenrocks]

Martial characters, both ranged and melee, on Unfair all need buffs from other classes to work, there's no "minimum or no maintenance" on Unfair unless you use an auto buff mod like BubbleBuff (which I 100% recommend to save time, it's not cheating at all).

The key is having a full arcane caster to buff (a Brown-fur Transumter is probably the strongest), a full divine caster to buff (even best if it's a Cleric with Community domain, Madness domain and domain zealot) and if you can somebody with a competence buff like a Bard/Skald/Sensei. Also a way to give enemies shaken (like Frightful Aspect or Dirge of Doom) so you can give you archer Shatter Defenses.

If your MC is going Legend you have tons of options. Something as simple as Mutation Warrior 20/Deliver 20 (if you are Lawful Good) with buffs is super strong, or you can try to abuse Elemental Barrage by going Eldritch Archer 20 (take Hurricane Bow and Sense Vitals from greater spell access)/Vivisectionist 20 or Mutation Warrior 20.

[Chronocide]

Kineticist is pretty solid for DPS.

[Der Mentat]

Sanctified Slayer is definitely a good choice for an archer. While Eldritch Archer has a higher damage potential, Sanctified Slayers do overall probably more damage against high AC targets.

In my current run I’m multiclassing both: Sanctified Slayer 12, Eldritch Archer 5, Sanctified Slayer 3. But it’s a Trickster MC with access to wizard spell book, so I can use Firebrand for a more effective elemental barrage.
For a merc I gess Sanctified Slayer 17, Loremaster 3 makes more sense. Loremaster could provide Transformation/Sense Vitals and Weapon Specialization.

If low micro has really a high priority I would just go for Demonslayer 20.

[atm]

Thanks for the suggestions guys.
yeah, I was kind of assuming the arcane/divine buffs for all chars was a given.
My main is kicking butt, as a melee Spellmaster 5, Scaled Fist 1, Loremaster 10, Eldritch Knight 10, Sword Saint 14. He had a lich merged spellbook, so his attacks are all healing him for 25-50. With his insane health from being L40, he's a self-healing juggernaut. (I think he has 600+ health when buffed, which when you consider Deskari only has a bit more than 1k, he's getting close to boss level).
Legend seems bugged to give more iterative attacks than it should (I believe it is supposed to max out at 4), so he's getting 8 main hand attacks per round due to his high BAB (and wielding the hasty eradicator offhand). Also with the blessing of unlife buff he's immune to most things.
His one drawback is that he is just moderately competent at damage (no 1k crits here). This is generally fine considering he has like 100 AC and +91 to hit, so he can just wear pretty much anything down.

[atm]

But yeah the main reason I am looking for low micro is that I am in the final act, and the fights are just too big to micro, and my current characters have probably got enough dps when microed to take out the few bosses that will need it. I am really looking for someone to stand at a safe(ish) distance and make the swarms of mobs die faster.

[Mravenrocks]

Originally posted by atm:

Thanks for the suggestions guys.
yeah, I was kind of assuming the arcane/divine buffs for all chars was a given.
My main is kicking butt, as a melee Spellmaster 5, Scaled Fist 1, Loremaster 10, Eldritch Knight 10, Sword Saint 14. He had a lich merged spellbook, so his attacks are all healing him for 25-50. With his insane health from being L40, he's a self-healing juggernaut. (I think he has 600+ health when buffed, which when you consider Deskari only has a bit more than 1k, he's getting close to boss level).
Legend seems bugged to give more iterative attacks than it should (I believe it is supposed to max out at 4), so he's getting 8 main hand attacks per round due to his high BAB (and wielding the hasty eradicator offhand). Also with the blessing of unlife buff he's immune to most things.
His one drawback is that he is just moderately competent at damage (no 1k crits here). This is generally fine considering he has like 100 AC and +91 to hit, so he can just wear pretty much anything down.

Legend had a bug on release where you couldn't get more than 4 attacks but like 5 or 6 patches ago it was fixed so they can get getting more attacks with more BaB.

For what you want I would definitely go for Mutation Warrior 20/Deliverer 20 (if Lawful good) or Mutation Warrior 20/Demonslayer 20

[Der Mentat]

Medium BAB classes need micro to increase their AB. So the only real options are probably indeed Mutation Warrior, Demonslayer, Deliverer or a monk archtype (for a merc).

Mutation Warrior gets +4 AB for Mutagen, +6 AB from Weapon Training and Gloves and +3 AB from Weapon Focus (Mythic), so overall +13 AB.

Deliverer gets Studied Target (+5 AB) and Quarry (+6 AB with Gloves), overall +11 AB.

Demonslayer gets Favoured Enemy (+10 AB) and Quarry (+6 BA), overall +16 AB.


Regarding damage:

Mutation Warrior: Weapon Training (+4), Mutagen (+3), Weapon Specialization (Mythic) (+7), overall +14

Deliverer: Studied Target (+5), Sneak Attack (6d6), Divine Anathema (2d6), overall 8d6+5

Demonslayer: Favoured Enemy (+10), Sense Vitals (5d6), overall 5d6+10

This is very simplified of course ; )


But in comparison I would say, Demonslayer is the most effective full BAB archer. Demonslayer can even take Divine Power with 1 level in Loremaster for additional +3 AB (+6 AB but you lose 2 from Favoured Enemy and 1 BAB) and +4 damage.

If Quarry is too much micro you could even go for Demonslayer 17, Loremaster 3 and take additionally Weapon Specialization; so less AB but +7 damage.

[Raikon]

I think that trickster to legend is the best for martial. Its just so powerful to have x6 critical multiplier, with a really low crit range. Its to late to make mercs now though that your on legend. Your mercs are going to suck at 2 mythic levels.

[atm]

Originally posted by Raikon:

I think that trickster to legend is the best for martial. Its just so powerful to have x6 critical multiplier, with a really low crit range. Its to late to make mercs now though that your on legend. Your mercs are going to suck at 2 mythic levels.

Oh... wait. I was not aware mercs would be stuck at just 2 mythic levels since all my other companions were on 8. Wow, that's a gotcha I hadn't realised, and I for sure would have made my mercs sooner!

EDIT: ROFL I found a worse gotcha. I can't even hire mercs now because its based on your level, and a new merc will cost me apparently nearly a million gold, because I am L38. This is a pretty lame glitch. Its particularly dumb when you consider you are paying for a L38 merc who is going to be still capped at L20, just with a massive excess of xp.

EDIT: OK I tested it. Merc costs 722,000 gold at my level (38) and is still capped at L20, and also gets 3 mythic ranks. So you are paying about four times more for a mercenary that is significantly weaker than a normal mercenary. I feel like someone at Owlcat forgot to test this?

[Mravenrocks]

Seeing as the game has been out for a while now and I've never ever heard anybody talking about the price of mercenaries when a Legend MC get to that kind of level, I think nobody tested it and probably 99% of the playerbase never tried to do that either.

[Baldurs_Gate_2]

Paladin / Hellknight / Zen Archer Legend while stacking Wisdom and Charisma for 100+ AB. Obviously you only need that high AB against certain enemies, so you don't use smite evil and smite chaos on normal mobs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeHuud0ABfA

[Chronocide]

Originally posted by atm:

EDIT: OK I tested it. Merc costs 722,000 gold at my level (38) and is still capped at L20, and also gets 3 mythic ranks. So you are paying about four times more for a mercenary that is significantly weaker than a normal mercenary. I feel like someone at Owlcat forgot to test this?

You don't have that much extra gold just lying around? I just got out of the first abyss town and I've got 1mil gold that I have no real use for....

Once they took away the option to spend my extra gold on the crusade, I don't really use it for much.

At one point I recall bribing a bartender 100k for information. I'm still not sure if that was a smart use of money or not...

[Raikon]

Ah thats right I forgot your character is technically mythic 3, its just the third rank is legend only.

[atm]

An update on the merc cost:

I did have about 800k gold, once I had sold some junk, so that's how I was able to hire a merc to test the level/ mythic ranks.
I discovered, however, that once I hit L40 the merc cost suddenly capped again at 200k. Not particularly pleased about losing the additional 500k for recruiting that merc when I was L38. (I made a L20 Skald to push my power higher, and wasn't too worried about not having all the mythic levels on him).