Impossible to stay Lawful for monk

[zolwik]

So I've created my character as a Scaled Fist monk which requires the character to be of lawful alignment.

Until level 8 everything was ok, I was either selecting good or lawful options in dialog but then suddenly because of some dialog choices my character switched to neutral good and I couldn't level up anymore.

Since then I've been selecting only 'Lawful' options whenever possible (probably 15 times already since then) but I'm still stuck in neutral good (wtf)! I was super close to moving to lawful good (right next to the border) and then suddenly 'boom' one choice where there was no lawful option and I'm back in the middle of the Neutral Good. Seriously wtf is going on?

[DarkFenix]

Alignment shift doesn't happen instantly, you should have paid attention to it slipping closer and closer to the border with NG. All I can suggest is either load an older save and pick dialogue more carefully, or use Toybox mod to reset your alignment.

[Razer]

The only way you move across the lawful to chaotic axis is to select lawful or chaotic actions. If you started lawful good, but are now neutral good you must have selected a boatload of chaotic actions. Because that is the only way you would have become neutral good.

[zolwik]

Originally posted by Razer:

The only way you move across the lawful to chaotic axis is to select lawful or chaotic actions. If you started lawful good, but are now neutral good you must have selected a boatload of chaotic actions. Because that is the only way you would have become neutral good.

That's interesting because I have selected chaotic maybe once or twice during the game (just for the fun of it).

[forkofspite]

Wouldn't a character that consistently chooses the "good" option rather than "lawful" option value goodness over lawfulness? Neutral Good seems appropriate. My guess is that you're ignoring numerous lawful options because they seem inappropriate to you.

Game mechanically, unless you're already at the outside border of the alignment wheel, good options moves your alignment straight up (similarly, lawful options moves you straight left, chaotic right, and evil down). Eventually, if you keep moving up, you'll either enter the NG wedge or the border.

Not 100% about this final part, but I think that if you're on the border, additional good options continues to move you up, but you move along the border towards NG.

[Balekai]

You need to also balance out your good/evil choices with lawful/chaotic ones due to the nature of alignment shifts in Wotr. The circular structure of the alignment system in this game means that picking good/evil choices inadvertently moves you closer to neutral in addition to opposing law/chaos choices.

So to maintain a lawful alignment, you need to pick a lot of lawful actions to counter your morality axis movement and any chaotic choices you make.

[Razer]

Originally posted by zolwik:

Originally posted by Razer:

The only way you move across the lawful to chaotic axis is to select lawful or chaotic actions. If you started lawful good, but are now neutral good you must have selected a boatload of chaotic actions. Because that is the only way you would have become neutral good.

That's interesting because I have selected chaotic maybe once or twice during the game (just for the fun of it).

There's different values for certain choices. A chaotic joke will not have as much effect as a chaotic action of letting a man blow up a building with himself in it. But 2 choices will never shift your balance. So must have done more than that. Or maybe it's bugged. There's no other way to move along the axis. There's no neutral choices, only lawful or chaotic.

[Rainnd]

Originally posted by Razer:

The only way you move across the lawful to chaotic axis is to select lawful or chaotic actions. If you started lawful good, but are now neutral good you must have selected a boatload of chaotic actions. Because that is the only way you would have become neutral good.

I don't think that's true. Good actions seem to move you towards neutral good. My azata character that never choose a lawfull answer had moved from chaotic good almost to neutral good and my angel character that never chosen chaotic answer moved from lawful to neutral.

[Ettanin]

Originally posted by Razer:

The only way you move across the lawful to chaotic axis is to select lawful or chaotic actions. If you started lawful good, but are now neutral good you must have selected a boatload of chaotic actions. Because that is the only way you would have become neutral good.

Wrong.

The alignment diagram in PF:KM and PF:WotR is, contrary to that of NWN and NWN 2, circular instead of rectangular. If you pick too many good options without picking lawful options (as there are no two-axial choices), you'll end up leaving the radial boundaries for LG.

Same will happen for picking too many lawful options without picking good options, you will end up LN.

[Balekai]

What Razor says is true to which I forgot to mention: Alignments shifts are not all equal. Some are really small. Others (like main plot decisions) can be huge if not force you into an alignment automatically (like Mythic classes requiring you to be within 1 alignment of their core alignment at a certain point in the game).

However, the neutral options are there. They're just not labelled as alignment options and don't shift alignment to Neutral as Razor said. Unlike other RPGs I find Wotr and Kingmaker didn't fall into the RPG trap of "all alignment or class specific dialogue choices are best ones to pick" issue. In many cases the right option to pick for a optimal outcome or the secret ending are the normal looking, non alignment shifting ones.

[Conquista]

did you already picked your mythic path?

[Aria Athena]

Even Owlcat knows they are not good with alignments and labeling dialog options, so they've added a scroll which resets your alignment.

[Orion Invictus]

A decision of a given alignment will move you in a straight line toward that alignment. So a Lawful action will move you directly toward Lawful (meaning, Lawful Neutral, the "pure" version of Lawful), a Good action will move you toward Good (ditto), and so on.

The amount depends on the action itself, but it's always a straight line. That's why you're stuck in Neutral Good, you either did too many Good actions, or the Good actions you did outweighed the Lawful.

[Applied Mediocrity]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

Even Owlcat knows they are not good with alignments and labeling dialog options, so they've added a scroll which resets your alignment.

Atonement has been part of D&D since the very beginning.

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by Applied Mediocrity:

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

Even Owlcat knows they are not good with alignments and labeling dialog options, so they've added a scroll which resets your alignment.

Atonement has been part of D&D since the very beginning.

Didn't know that, but it hadn't been part of Kingmaker since the very beginning. People complained and they added the scrolls.

[Drake]

What is your mythic path ? I you picked azata there is no way you can stay lawful. As a lawful good monk your only viable choices with the starting paths are angel and aeon (and for aeon there are a lot of chances you've shift toward lawful neutral if you try to stay a true aeon to the end).