Best wizard school for core?

[Malaficus Shaikan]

In a few hours i am trying core again(I will success at it. I just need to learn how to be a better wizard)

My goal is to be an Elf wizard turned lich.

I have tried +12 inistative builds.
I have tried weapon fineese builds.
The end result is always the same.

My spell dc is to low and my character dies within seconds.
According to my friend(Who is a pathfinder dm) my problem is that i keep picking universalist school and obsessively wasting money on scrolls to scribe into my spellbook.
That this game it is better to focus on mastering a few spells then learning all of them.

I consider limiting yourself too a few spells is what sorcerors do.

So i need some advice to get better at making wizards.

1: Is it true that in crpg you are better off making a sorceror as wizard main advantage of versatility doesnt matter in crpg?
2: What magic school would be best for an elf lich?
3: If i where to shallow my wizard pride and make a lesser class.
What class would be best for lich.
4: What sorceror blood line is good for lich?

[Yannir]

1. Not necessarily. Wizards and Sorcerers are pretty much on par with different advantages. But you do have to specialize if you want to land anything.
2. Well, if you're doing elf, Enchantment is the way to go. They have a racial feat option that makes Enchantment even better.
3. There's only 3 real options that get merged spellbook and level 10 spells. Wizard, Arcanist and Sorcerer.
4. I don't know what's optimal but I'd do Arcane or Undead. You can do both with Mythic Ability called Second Bloodline.

[Yannir]

Another idea I've been bouncing around is doing an Arcane/Blue Dragon Bloodline Sorcerer using Stormlord's Resolve bracers that turn all of your energy damage into lightning damage. Blue Dragon adds additional damage for every die you roll for lightning damage and Stormlords allows you to turn your other spells to do lightning damage... So even if lightning spells aren't the best damage-wise, you can use any spell as a lightning damage spell and benefit from the extra damage of Blue dragon. Arcane Bloodline is just great utility overall.

But I don't know how all of that meshes with Lich. I thought of this as merc build.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by Yannir:

Another idea I've been bouncing around is doing an Arcane/Blue Dragon Bloodline Sorcerer using Stormlord's Resolve bracers that turn all of your energy damage into lightning damage. Blue Dragon adds additional damage for every die you roll for lightning damage and Stormlords allows you to turn your other spells to do lightning damage... So even if lightning spells aren't the best damage-wise, you can use any spell as a lightning damage spell and benefit from the extra damage of Blue dragon. Arcane Bloodline is just great utility overall.

But I don't know how all of that meshes with Lich. I thought of this as merc build.

Something to think about.

[Doombringer]

Demons are Lightning Immune...
Lich spells are almost all necromancy...
If you are going for any save DC-based build then Demon works much better.
(Also too many Enchantment spells are save every turn trash.)

One way to get high save DC is to abuse Expanded Arsenal.
Don't take spell focus in the school you want to boost, but take Expanded Arsenal for it, and take spell focus/greater/mythic feats for other schools.

Since Lich gives a Cha buff to undead, eventually becomes undead, and undead get bonus hp/lvl from Cha instead of Con, I'd go Sorceror.
Merging spellbooks gives you a TON of extra known spells (in addition to the Lich ones), so that isn't a problem.
Seeker Sorceror gets a lot of extra feats at no cost.

[Yannir]

Originally posted by Doombringer:

Lich spells are almost all necromancy...
If you are going for any save DC-based build then Demon works much better.
(Also too many Enchantment spells are save every turn trash.)

One way to get high save DC is to abuse Expanded Arsenal.
Don't take spell focus in the school you want to boost, but take Expanded Arsenal for it, and take spell focus/greater/mythic feats for other schools.

Since Lich gives a Cha buff to undead, eventually becomes undead, and undead get bonus hp/lvl from Cha instead of Con, I'd go Sorceror.
Merging spellbooks gives you a TON of extra known spells (in addition to the Lich ones), so that isn't a problem.
Seeker Sorceror gets a lot of extra feats at no cost.

The elven racial trait for +DCs to Enchantment is also copied to the other school by Expanded Arsenal. So I'd use Expanded Arsenal for Necromancy.

I made my suggestion as it is because I know the OP bought the game to play Lich specifically so suggesting Demon is kinda pointless.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by Yannir:

The elven racial trait for +DCs to Enchantment is also copied to the other school by Expanded Arsenal. So I'd use Expanded Arsenal for Necromancy.

I made my suggestion as it is because I know the OP bought the game to play Lich specifically so suggesting Demon is kinda pointless.

Damm.
You remember me?
Not sure if i shoud feel flatered or scared.

[Yannir]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

Originally posted by Yannir:

The elven racial trait for +DCs to Enchantment is also copied to the other school by Expanded Arsenal. So I'd use Expanded Arsenal for Necromancy.

I made my suggestion as it is because I know the OP bought the game to play Lich specifically so suggesting Demon is kinda pointless.

Damm.
You remember me?
Not sure if i shoud feel flatered or scared.

There isn't that many ppl that are regulars here, I remember many of them, and I have a good memory.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

So any reason to not go crossblooded sorceror?

[MjKorz]

For the base campaign, the school that reaches highest possible spell DC is Enchantment, but it requires a Loremaster dip in order to get Greater Command for Compulsion immune bosses (e.g. Baphomet, Deskari, Mephisto and some others) and access to sorcerer Undead and maybe Serpentine bloodline arcanas (so a sorcerer dip for a wizard). However, Enchantment requires backup from Conjuration (or some other school that can bypass magic and mind-affecting immunities) in the Inevitable Excess DLC. So an Enchanter who wishes to stay viable from start to finish would actually end up being an Enchanter-Conjurer dual school specialist.

Illusion reaches somewhat lower spell DCs due to less item support, but it's at least as strong or stronger due to instant death spells. However, Illusion has a disadvantage compared to Enchantment: until you get Weird, you have no instant AoE disabling spell (the disabling part of Phantasmal Web and Putrefaction kicks in on the next round after the spell is cast). You have Color Spray, but it lasts only a round against high HD targets and Rainbow Pattern fascination is HD-limited and loses usefulness as an AoE spell extremely fast. Scintillating Pattern is an AoE confusion that does not care about HD limits and bypasses mind-affecting and compulsion immunities in most cases, but confusion is at best 3/4 reliable disable.

Evocation is another extremely strong school that has two purposes: control and damage. Most people consider Evocation purely as a damage-dealer school and fail to see its control potential. Various Sonic spells (Ear-Piercing Scream, Sound Burst, multiple Shout spells) provide single target and AoE single round stuns and dazes, the duration can be extended to two rounds via favorite metamagic. (Mass) Ice Prison is an extremely strong (AoE) paralyzation effect with an advantage over Enchantment counterparts - no mind-affecting descriptor. Almost all of the strongest bosses in the game can be paralyzed after their Freedom of Movement buff is dispelled. Prismatic spray provides randomized damage/control effects that may even result in instant death. Sirocco is Grease on steroids that can inflicts Prone. Stormbolts is a single round stun with non-negligible damage. Sunburst is AoE blindness. Archon's Aura is a save reducing spell which is always good for control DC casters. Battering Blast is single round, single target prone with non-negligible damage. Dictum, Holy Word and other HD difference-dependent spells are strong in theory and provide AoE stagger/blindness/paralysis/death, but in practice only work with the Lich who can stack caster levels properly which is why an Evoker Lich is exceptionally strong.

Conjuration is a very strong school in the early game due to Grease and Glitterdust bypassing enemy spell resistance, but eventually it falls off massively due to multiple factors: Prone-immune enemies becoming more prevalent and Conjuration lacking high level long duration AoE disabling spells (the short duration of Tsunami just doesn't cut it). Web is nice too, but also becomes useless against fliers just like Grease. Glitterdust and Slowing Mud provide Blindness and Stagger which are strong debuffs, but they're not outright disabling spells as the enemy can still act. Stinking Cloud is useless against anything poison-immune which constitutes most of the enemy roster. Chains of Light is an exceptionally strong spell due to being a Paralyzation effect with a Reflex save (paralyzed targets have their Dexterity set to 1 and suffer -5 Reflex save debuff along with the loss of their Reflex bonus from Dexterity above 10) that also ignores spell resistance (and thus can penetrate Valmallos' magic immunity on its own without the help of Deadly Magic or Grandmaster's Rod) and is the main reason why Conjuration is super strong as a support school for a dual-school specialist, but its main problem is that it's a single target spell. All in all, Conjuration is strong in some cases, but I wouldn't play it as a standalone school.

Necromancy is relatively weak school due to one glaring weakness: no AoE disabling spells aside from Fear and Banshee Blast. While on paper these are good spells, using them in practice will drive you mad as you will constantly have to chase down fleeing enemies all over the map, potentially aggroing additional encounters along the way. Damage is decent, but can't really compete with Hellfire Ray. Ultimate Death comes online so late it's not worth considering AND it's also just single target. Level drain and ability damage spells don't work against most bosses that matter. You also get Aoe Blind via Plague Storm and single target Stagger from Death Clutch. Sickened and Shaken debuffs are easier procced by Prediction of Failure, not Necromancy spells. Unique lich spell Corrupted Blood bypasses poison immunity and can nauseate anything, but is bugged and the explosion is centered on the caster, not the target, resulting in massive AoE friendly fire that can lead to a party wipe in the blink of an eye (you cannot make it selective) and is also single target pre-explosion. Embrace of Death is a fancy single target Grease when used against level/ability-drain immune bosses (anything that matters). Ultimately, Necromancy is the weakest of the viable offensive schools.

Abjuration and Transmutation lack offensive spells and are not self-sufficient. Wouldn't play them as a single school specialist.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Evocation is another extremely strong school that has two purposes: control and damage. Most people consider Evocation purely as a damage-dealer school and fail to see its control potential. Various Sonic spells (Ear-Piercing Scream, Sound Burst, multiple Shout spells) provide single target and AoE single round stuns and dazes, the duration can be extended to two rounds via favorite metamagic. (Mass) Ice Prison is an extremely strong (AoE) paralyzation effect with an advantage over Enchantment counterparts - no mind-affecting descriptor. Almost all of the strongest bosses in the game can be paralyzed after their Freedom of Movement buff is dispelled. Prismatic spray provides randomized damage/control effects that may even result in instant death. Sirocco is Grease on steroids that can inflicts Prone. Stormbolts is a single round stun with non-negligible damage. Sunburst is AoE blindness. Archon's Aura is a save reducing spell which is always good for control DC casters. Battering Blast is single round, single target prone with non-negligible damage. Dictum, Holy Word and other HD difference-dependent spells are strong in theory and provide AoE stagger/blindness/paralysis/death, but in practice only work with the Lich who can stack caster levels properly which is why an Evoker Lich is exceptionally strong.

This is a very compelling arguement.
The entire list was good but until i read this i was planning on undead bloodline sorceror.
Now i am second geusing again.

[MjKorz]

Keep in mind that regardless of whatever school you wish to specialize in, early game is best played through Conjuration (which ironically makes the Conjurer harder to play early, because you cannot pick Spell Focus in Conjuration, if you want to maximize Conjuration spell DCs).

If your goal is to play an Evoker or some other non-Conjuration specialist, start with double Spell Focus in Conjuration and play early through Grease + Glitterdust. Do not pick Spell Focus in whatever school you wish to specialize in. Once you kill Nulkineth and get your second mythic rank, get expanded arsenal in whatever school you wish to specialize in and keep Stacking Spell focus feats (except for the school you wish to specialize in). Usually, I get at least 10 Spell Focus feats on all of my arcane casters.

[Yannir]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

So any reason to not go crossblooded sorceror?

Well, Crossblooded has to choose their Bloodline power between the two they have. If you pick up a second Bloodline as a Mythic Ability, you get powers from both bloodlines. Ofc if you do both, you can effectively get abilities from 3 Bloodlines but not all of them.

[Yannir]

Coming back to my earlier Blue Dragon Sorcerer idea, I actually think it would work best as a Cross-Blooded Sorcerer with Air Elemental-Blue Dragon hybrid Bloodline. Then pick Arcane as the Second Bloodline.

Which would also work as Red Dragon-Fire Elemental. Fire is better supported by items and you're not locked into Stormlords Resolve.

[Chronocide]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

So any reason to not go crossblooded sorceror?

It's not a wizard, which is the OP topic....

I like the sorcerer on companions, but I'm always disappointed with Main Character sorcerers. Not enough skill points, or the bloodline arcana doesn't work as intended, not enough feats and so forth.

Crossblooded also has the downside of knowing 1 less spell per level.

I like the idea of the sorcerer, just not in practice.

For CHA spontaneous caster, I always end up with the Oracle.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Keep in mind that regardless of whatever school you wish to specialize in, early game is best played through Conjuration (which ironically makes the Conjurer harder to play early, because you cannot pick Spell Focus in Conjuration, if you want to maximize Conjuration spell DCs).

If your goal is to play an Evoker or some other non-Conjuration specialist, start with double Spell Focus in Conjuration and play early through Grease + Glitterdust. Do not pick Spell Focus in whatever school you wish to specialize in. Once you kill Nulkineth and get your second mythic rank, get expanded arsenal in whatever school you wish to specialize in and keep Stacking Spell focus feats (except for the school you wish to specialize in). Usually, I get at least 10 Spell Focus feats on all of my arcane casters.

So if i understand it correctly.
I have to "waste" all my feats into increase spell dc so my spells wont suck?

Originally posted by Chronocide:

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

So any reason to not go crossblooded sorceror?

It's not a wizard, which is the OP topic....

I like the sorcerer on companions, but I'm always disappointed with Main Character sorcerers. Not enough skill points, or the bloodline arcana doesn't work as intended, not enough feats and so forth.

Crossblooded also has the downside of knowing 1 less spell per level.

I like the idea of the sorcerer, just not in practice.

For CHA spontaneous caster, I always end up with the Oracle.

I am the op.
And one of the question was if going sorceror isnt a better idea.
And you have a good point.
Not having 4-6 skillpoint per level is just wrong.
I like maxing out all my lore skills.