How a Demon Commander can become the greatest threat in the entire multiverse

[Nautica Malone]

So I've actually discussed this topic once before, but having finished the game not too long ago, I realized just how absolutely insane the canonical power of a Demon Commander would be in comparison to other paths ( With a full ascension and Crusade maximization ending ) both pre-ascension and post-ascension, thanks to several key assets which are only available to the Demon God, some of which are overlooked

Forget about 'just' becoming a God, the ultimate position attained by others. As an ascended Demon, you have the potential to become THE God of Pathfinder - upending the entire planar order and, should you succeed, become the sole Overdeity of the Prime and every other Plane. The likes of Iomedae are nothing but gnats under your boot in the apex of your might.

What grants the Demon path in particular such tremendous potential? I'll go over all the resources available to your new divine campaign of conquest which are unique to a Demonic deity, and cite in-game sources to support the likelihood of how certain events are going to unfold following your ascension.

1. Even before ascending, you can usurp Nocticula's throne after killing her and gain control over the entire Midnight Isles as well as infinite hosts of Demonic entities native to it ( All the Succubi/Incubi in the planes, all the Shadow Demons, etc ). This is the most massive amount of geopolitical and military power available out of any path prior to ascension. You are a cosmic ruler since the beginning of Act 5. There's an even greater significance to your position here, but we'll get to that.

2. In the ending slides, after permanently killing Baphomet and Deskari, you don't just destroy their realms or whatever, you actually merge both of them into your own realm, taking over all of their demonic hosts ( Minotaurs, Swarms, etc ) in the process, and adding them on top of the Midnight Isles, since the Abyss is in fact your home plane. With 3 of the most notorious Abyssal realms under your domain, Areelu Vorlesh, and the bunch of Divine Heralds you brought with you ( My favorite for this alignment being romanced Wenduag as chief Divine Huntress and bodyguard ), you are now THE most powerful entity in all of the Abyss times 10, bar none. Even Lamashtu and Gyronna do not control nearly as much realms or sheer power as you do from the very start.

2.1 ( Addendum ) - If you think that either Lamashtu or Gyronna stand a slight chance against you, the game itself already dissuades us of that notion - In the final ending scene, Pharasma threatens to wipe out Areelu Vorlesh, when you show up and bark at her to stand down. Pharasma reluctantly relents and comments after you leave that your combined powers 'nearly equal her own'. Pharasma is, by most accounts, the strongest Pathfinder deity in existence. A ascended commander will, eventually, be far up the Divine Rank ladder than regular deities like Lamashtu.

2.2 - If you ascended as any path other than Demon, your chances of acquiring greater status in your new planar ecosystem are pretty slim, as you have any footholds on those planes and more importantly must contend with a host of other deities for the privilege. Devil? Good luck VS Asmodeus and every infernal deity. Good alignment? You have to face the entire Good-aligned pantheon. And you can't invade other planes because as Iomedae said when she refrained from striking down Nocticula, that would spark a planar war and you'd probably get put down by every other deity who doesn't want that.

Lucky for you, in the Abyss, there are mostly just Demon Lord rather than Gods. And nobody is going to care how much you fight or take from or subjugate each other, internal conflicts are common in the Abyss. As mentioned before, even Abyssal gods are going to be overshadowed by the Commander's might, and the other Demon Lords are going to fall like dominos by the hundreds. Soon enough, you will become to the Abyss what Asmodeus is to Hell - the Greater God of the entire freaking plane, with every single layer either pledging fealty or being eradicated and given to Shamira-style puppets.

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Is this good enough? No, in fact you are just getting started. It's time to become Rovagug's successor and claim the Prime Material while waging multiversal war.

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3. Back on the Prime, thanks to your Abyssal identity, you also have significant holdings that almost no other Deity has an equivalent to - The Worldwound, which remains open and now serves as the headquarters for YOUR Demonic invasion, and if you maximized all Crusade stats, then the ending slides will inform you that Drezen replaced Nerosyan as the seat of influence and power, and that all of Mendev became corrupted and assimilated to your worship. The ending slides also inform you, and without even taking into account all the assets described in this post so far, that everyone soon learned that the Worldwound just a 'trial run' and that all of Avistan's rulers were forced on the defensive under your reign.

4. Now here comes the best part. Remember the Nahydrian Crystals? You know, the cosmic rule-breaking superpower substance that the whole game revolves around, whose brief mining operations on some remote Isles you cut short and which barely even begun on Alinthyia ( The capital's main island which Nocticula forbade Hephazmirah from mining on )? You know, the crystals which the game told you Golarion would stand absolutely no chance against if you didn't stop them from being imbued unto Demons in time?

Yeah, about that.....guess who has absolute authority over the Midnight Isles these days. Oh, and not "just" that - Guess who has a monopoly over the entire Abyss's supply of Fresh Nahyndrian Crystals by virtue of being able to slaughter any Demon Lord they please or simply demand tribute from them in blood?

On that note, the Architect of your ascension, Areelu Vorlesh, is still by your side with her knowledge intact, and Threshold? Threshold is still active. And with the sheer power of a Greater God and overlord of the Abyss, you probably don't even need to wait out cycles anymore in order for it to stabilize, or even care about the consequences for that matter. Considering you ARE the Abyss incarnate, you probably don't even need Threshold, but it can still serve as a symbol.

Do you know what that means? It means you can choose mortal candidates to be empowered with Fresh Nahydrian Crystals and bolster your ranks as newly minted Demigods. "Pathfinder:Kingmaker"? More like "Pathfinder:Godmaker". Starstone Trial, out, The Threshold of Ascendancy - in. Every mortal in Golarion will know that currying your favor and reaching the highest ranks of the Abyssal clergy can result in an effortless road to Divinity. And believe me, there might be a reason you're going to need all the help you can get at this point..........

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Alright, so to recap, we have one of the most powerful deities in existence which took over the entire Abyss, the oldest plane by many accounts, with all it's power and knowledge, your entire divine pantheon, you ( The Commander ) being one of the best strategic minds in existence, Areelu Vorlesh is one of the greatest scientific minds in existence, we have complete monopoly over the most powerful resource in existence ( Nahyndrian Crystals ), we already control massive territories on the Prime, and all of Golarion is about to be conquered before it can even blink as the entire unified Abyss equipped with Mythic power is descending on them even without your direct intervention. Oh, and you can spawn chaotic evil Gods at will.

So by now, pretty much every other deity realizes that your power is out of control and you pose more of a threat than Rovagug ever did, and that Golarion is utterly doomed without help, followed by the loss of faith and subsequent defeat of every other deity at your hands. at this point they have nothing to lose and no further chance of mortal victory, so a coalition of Pathfinder deities including Pharasma are probably going to gang up on you like they did to Rovagug before you become unstoppable.

Unfortunately, you will probably not survive a direct combined assault from hundreds of deities by yourself, so it is time to make alliances. From here on out, it is unclear whether the divine coalition or your coalition will win the multiversal war, as the outcome depends on various other deities and some incredibly magnificent feats. This is already shaping up to be too long, so I won't expand on the options too greatly, I'll just give them short overviews:

A. You can probably convince the plane of Maelstorm and the pure Chaotic Gods to join you, as they would be severely weakened by the fall of another Chaotic Plane, and Chaotic Good deities are allied with other Good deities.

B. There's going to be a diplomatic contest between you and Asmodeus's deal-brokering over the loyalty of Neutral Evil deities. You will have the edge in outbidding him though, since Asmodeus is gonna need to be allied with the Good deities in order to stand a chance against you ( Just like he was in Rovagug's time ), and therefore will only be able to offer them 'real estate' in the Abyss once you're gone. Whereas you can offer them dominions over all the Good-aligned and Lawful planes if they aid your cause. Even if you only snag half of them, it should give you an edge in the battle.

C. Weird erotic fanfiction timeline - If you have a female Commander ( Or male, IDK his preference or how divine pregnancy works ), you COULD try seducing Asmodeus. I mean, you did take over as the Queen of Succubi and Lust, and you are the only Evil deity powerful enough to earn his jealousy and admiration in a very long time. If anyone could pull it off, it would be you. If Asmodeus does join you, the other Planes won't be able to overwhelm you anymore.

D. Free Rovagug. The Abyss actually used to be his original plane as he burrowed through it, maybe you'll find some knowledge to control him or restrain him or not at all, but if you manage to free him ( Either through brute force or tricking Asmodeus into doing it ), he'll probably go after his captors first either way, they all die, then Golarion prays to you to save them from total obliteration, you gain Overdeity rank and can probably easily contain him again.

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So as you can see, you still have some cards up your sleeve even against a coalition of deities. If you are victorious, you become Overdeity of the entire Multiverse. Or if you'd prefer not to risk it, you could be content with simply being the strongest deity in the multiverse but calling off the invasion of Golarion and entering Isolationist mode in the Abyss.

[Yannir]

A slight wrinkle in this is that if Nocticula is dead, there is in fact no source of more Nahyndrian crystals since creating them is HER power. Once you mine out all of it, that's it. The Midnight Bolts are created with her power as well. Unless I missed something.

[Nautica Malone]

Originally posted by Yannir:

A slight wrinkle in this is that if Nocticula is dead, there is in fact no source of more Nahyndrian crystals since creating them is HER power. Once you mine out all of it, that's it. The Midnight Bolts are created with her power as well. Unless I missed something.

So, the 'stale' Nahyndrian Crystals are the crystallized blood of the Demon Lords turned into islands by Nocticula. She doesn't have to stick around in order for them to be mined, they're already just lying around as deposits. And when you say 'once you mine out all of it', you're talking about so many deposits that even a few months or a year of mining a fraction of them on one or two islands would be enough, according to the game's narration, to doom all of Golarion.

The Midnight Bolts, used by the Mortal Commander to obtain pints of Fresh Nahydrian Crystals, were designed by Areelu Vorlesh using Nocticula's blood/power in order to merely spill the blood of a Demon Lord. However, it is Areelu who masterminded the Bolts and refinement of Fresh crystals, and Nocticula isn't special beyond just being a crafty and wily Demon Lord - her poison probably just serves as the 'power source' or conduit necessary to siphon essence out of a being as strong as a Demon Lord.

As a Greater Deity, Nocticula's power is like a kobold's next to yours. You don't even need arrows, you could literally just squeeze a Demon Lord to death with your fingertips until it explodes into a shower of blood, and Areelu Vorlesh would definitely know how to distill it in to a fresh crystal.

Lastly, in the very unlike case that her services are required for some reason, you could opt to assist her in squashing the rebellion before ascending. Then, once ascending and already being essentially her lover, basically just tell her to keep ruling the Midnight Isles under your authority as your personal steward rather than vice versa. It's not as if she can win against the Divine Commander and his heralds, and it would be a pretty sweet deal for her to become the mistress of the most powerful deity ever.

[Yannir]

True, she ain't permadead yet and you could offer Nocticula a position as your concubine.

But it doesn't matter how much power you would have as a Greater Deity. The power to make Nahyndrian Crystal is UNIQUE to Nocticula and the Midnight Bolts are in fact made by Nocticula, not Areelu. Areelu just improved them so that the Demon Lord doesn't need to be dead to squeeze out a crystal. There's one of those journal crystals in Areelu's lab that tells how Nocticula borrows some of her arrows to Areelu for improvement.

If you as a Demon Lord kill other Demon Lords, they'll just die. No Nahyndrian Crystals.

[Nautica Malone]

Originally posted by Yannir:

True, she ain't permadead yet and you could offer Nocticula a position as your concubine.

But it doesn't matter how much power you would have as a Greater Deity. The power to make Nahyndrian Crystal is UNIQUE to Nocticula and the Midnight Bolts are in fact made by Nocticula, not Areelu. Areelu just improved them so that the Demon Lord doesn't need to be dead to squeeze out a crystal. There's one of those journal crystals in Areelu's lab that tells how Nocticula borrows some of her arrows to Areelu for improvement.

If you as a Demon Lord kill other Demon Lords, they'll just die. No Nahyndrian Crystals.

What's your source that the power is unique to Nocticula? I don't remember the precise lore, but I can find nothing to indicate that Nocticula somehow has a special attribute distinct from all other Demon Lords that can't even be replicated by Abyssal deities. Nocticula did make deadly bolts, but those bolts were likely only needed because Areelu or the Commander for that matter still wasn't powerful enough to the extent that a Demon Lord like Nocticula is to be able to injure another Demon Lord in that manner.

I looked up the Pathfinder wiki entry on the crystals, and it only says the following:

https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Nahyndrian_crystal

>"Nahyndrian crystals are dark purple crystals formed from the blood of demon lords that are murdered. A large deposit of these crystals was discovered on Vazglar, one of the Midnight Isles in the Abyss, by Areelu Vorlesh.[1] They are named for the fate of Nahyndri, the first demon lord murdered by Nocticula.[2][3] Areelu was able to liquefy the crystals to provide exceptional power to those who drink it. Along with Hepzamirah and Xanthir Vang, she also was able to turn a crystal into a chisel that could destroy a wardstone.[1]"

There is nothing about a "Unique Nocticula" in the lore unless you can find it in the game. It does not say that Nocticula must be the one to murder them. Nocticula just had enough raw power to pierce Demon Lords and shed their essence with 100% guarantee. Even if Nocticula learned of some method that is required, you can probably find the knowledge once you take over.

I do believe that Nocticula had some kind of method of doing it, of potentially accelerating the blood's crystallization perhaps so that it turns into a crystal immediately. but she herself as a creature is just a Demon Lord, so I can't see why Areelu wouldn't be able to repeat the process with access to enough power.

[Yannir]

As far as I know, this information is not anywhere online, only ingame. It's all from conversations with Areelu and Nocticula in Acts 4 and 5, and from journal entries in Areelu's lab in Act 5. It is Nocticulas unique power to prevent the soul of a Demon Lord from moving on to "whats-its-name" instead the soul becomes "lethargic" and rots away with the body, forming the Nahyndrian Crystals.

[Nautica Malone]

Originally posted by Yannir:

As far as I know, this information is not anywhere online, only ingame. It's all from conversations with Areelu and Nocticula in Acts 4 and 5. It is Nocticulas unique power to prevent the soul of a Demon Lord from moving on to "whats-its-name" instead the soul becomes "lethargic" and rots away with the body, forming the Nahyndrian Crystals.

I remember the conversations and it is a good point, but there is an important distinction to be made between 'Nocticula is the only one who did it', and between 'Nocticula is the only one who *possibly* can do it'.

Nocticula definitely has a method, or the formula to exert her demonic power in way which prevents Demon Lord souls from moving on to becoming a frozen statue in that place, and Nocticula is the only entity to accomplish that feat by the time in which the game takes place in. However, I do not believe we have confirmation that Nocticula's knowledge, method, or "power" as you call it cannot be replicated or learned by Divine entities like Areelu and the Commander with intimate knowledge of Nocticula, of the crystals, and of soul science.

There is simply no cosmic explanation to the theory that Nocticula's *methods* cannot be imitated by those familiar with them. Nocticula's canonical creature type is just a plain old Demon Lord. There's no reason I can conceive of for her to have a power that nobody else in the multiverse can also *learn* to use or find their own of doing so.

Either way, doubt it will be a wrinkle in the plan. Even without making her a concubine, with the power level of the Greatest Gods and the knowledge of the entire Abyss ( Including Areshkagal's whom you killed ) laid bare before you, you could also probably just cast the most potent mind-control spell in the universe on her and make her do your bidding, no big deal.

[Yannir]

Originally posted by Kenji:

Originally posted by Yannir:

As far as I know, this information is not anywhere online, only ingame. It's all from conversations with Areelu and Nocticula in Acts 4 and 5. It is Nocticulas unique power to prevent the soul of a Demon Lord from moving on to "whats-its-name" instead the soul becomes "lethargic" and rots away with the body, forming the Nahyndrian Crystals.

I remember the conversations and it is a good point, but there is an important distinction to be made between 'Nocticula is the only one who did it', and between 'Nocticula is the only one who *possibly* can do it'.

Nocticula definitely has a method, or the formula to exert her demonic power in way which prevents Demon Lord souls from moving on to becoming a frozen statue in that place, and Nocticula is the only entity to accomplish that feat by the time in which the game takes place in. However, I do not believe we have confirmation that Nocticula's knowledge, method, or "power" as you call it cannot be replicated or learned by Divine entities like Areelu and the Commander with intimate knowledge of Nocticula, of the crystals, and of soul science.

There is simply no cosmic explanation to the theory that Nocticula's *methods* cannot be imitated by those familiar with them. Nocticula's canonical creature type is just a plain old Demon Lord. There's no reason I can conceive of for her to have a power that nobody else in the multiverse can also *learn* to use or find their own of doing so.

What's most suggestive that this is just Nocticulas unique power is that she discovers it by accident when she kills Aluthinyia and the Midnight Isles are formed from her body and the crystals from her blood. That implies that there was no "method", it just happened.

Not saying the Commander and Areelu couldn't eventually replicate it but that's highly speculative. Ifs and whatnot.

Look, if you start looking for a "cosmic explanation" to Nocticulas power this whole theory of yours goes in the trashbin. If you impose that a Demon Commander would be the most powerful entity in existence, Nocticulas unique power must become similarly canonical. Otherwise it becomes contradictory to itself.

[Nautica Malone]

Originally posted by Yannir:

Originally posted by Kenji:

I remember the conversations and it is a good point, but there is an important distinction to be made between 'Nocticula is the only one who did it', and between 'Nocticula is the only one who *possibly* can do it'.

Nocticula definitely has a method, or the formula to exert her demonic power in way which prevents Demon Lord souls from moving on to becoming a frozen statue in that place, and Nocticula is the only entity to accomplish that feat by the time in which the game takes place in. However, I do not believe we have confirmation that Nocticula's knowledge, method, or "power" as you call it cannot be replicated or learned by Divine entities like Areelu and the Commander with intimate knowledge of Nocticula, of the crystals, and of soul science.

There is simply no cosmic explanation to the theory that Nocticula's *methods* cannot be imitated by those familiar with them. Nocticula's canonical creature type is just a plain old Demon Lord. There's no reason I can conceive of for her to have a power that nobody else in the multiverse can also *learn* to use or find their own of doing so.

What's most suggestive that this is just Nocticulas unique power is that she discovers it by accident when she kills Aluthinyia and the Midnight Isles are formed from her body and the crystals from her blood. That implies that there was no "method", it just happened.

Not saying the Commander and Areelu couldn't eventually replicate it but that's highly speculative. Ifs and whatnot.

Look, if you start looking for a "cosmic explanation" to Nocticulas power this whole theory of yours goes in the trashbin. If you impose that a Demon Commander would be the most powerful entity in existence, Nocticulas unique power must become similarly canonical. Otherwise it becomes contradictory to itself.

So I did some delving but hit a roadblock and I can't find out more about the Tabletop lore of Nahyndrian Crystals without purchasing the sourcebooks, but Nahyndri was the first Demon Lord killed by Nocticula, and his Quasi-Soul became trapped in the Midnight Isles rather than the Rift of Repose ( The place you forgot the name of ), which does indicate that Nocticula has some kind of power or method to preserve it.

I should add that having just read about it again, the Rift of Repose itself is a hidden and unclaimed rift within the Abyss, guarded by Nalfanshees albeit one known to quite a few creatures across the plane who frequently attempt to infiltrate it and prevent demons from being resurrected, and in there, the Demon's power is fossilized as formations on the walls whose pictures look exactly as Nahyndrian Crystals do, suggesting that Nocticula ( Which she did say also ) is able to moor their fossils to her own realms as islands rather than allow them to become fossilized in the Rift. However, should one control all of the Abyss, one can also easily claim the Rift of Repose and all the crystals fossilized there over the ages.

The Demon Commander's power has nothing to do with Nocticula's crystal process being unique or not, don't know what gave you the impression. The Demon Commander's power stems from 1. The ability to become the most powerful Abyssal entity just by virtue of having killed Baphomet, Deskari, Nocticula, and being divine with a divine pantheon and then proceed to conquered all of it unopposed by the lesser and impotent Demon Lords. Then there's the fact you get Worldwound + Mendev on the prime, and access to crystal mines regardless of Nocticula.

The FRESH Nahyndrian Crystals are just the cherry on top of the cake. Even if they were missing, the Demon Commander's power is still unmatched from all the sources listed and the monopoly over the remaining crystal mines. You actually wouldn't be able to create more than a few new deities out of mortals using fresh ones before every other deity in the multiverse barring some declares war on the Abyss to stop you, which is where the alliances come in.

I don't really understand which contradiction you are referring to. I think you got confused and misremembered my post as arguing that the Demon Commander's power comes from the crystals themselves, which I never argued in my post. EVERY PATH can ascend with the crystals, but only the Demon can become that powerful because of his geopolitical opportunities and circumstances, not because of the way they ascended. The reserves of stale crystals in the Midnight Isles are to be used on your Demonic Army, to grant them mythic power as they invade other Abyssal realms and subsequently Golarion.

[Applied Mediocrity]

Who (or what) killed Aroden is likely still around (provided that such things as time make sense here) and might very well decide to deal with the new troublemaker as well.
And if you're looking for cosmic explanation, that's the most likely candidate, too.

[Yannir]

Originally posted by Kenji:

So I did some delving but hit a roadblock and I can't find out more about the Tabletop lore of Nahyndrian Crystals without purchasing the sourcebooks, but Nahyndri was the first Demon Lord killed by Nocticula, and his Quasi-Soul became trapped in the Midnight Isles rather than the Rift of Repose ( The place you forgot the name of ), which does indicate that Nocticula has some kind of power or method to preserve it.

I should add that having just read about it again, the Rift of Repose itself is a hidden and unclaimed rift within the Abyss, guarded by Nalfanshees albeit one known to quite a few creatures across the plane who frequently attempt to infiltrate it and prevent demons from being resurrected, and in there, the Demon's power is fossilized as formations on the walls whose pictures look exactly as Nahyndrian Crystals do, suggesting that Nocticula ( Which she did say also ) is able to moor their fossils to her own realms as islands rather than allow them to become fossilized in the Rift. However, should one control all of the Abyss, one can also easily claim the Rift of Repose and all the crystals fossilized there over the ages.

The Demon Commander's power has nothing to do with Nocticula's crystal process being unique or not, don't know what gave you the impression. The Demon Commander's power stems from 1. The ability to become the most powerful Abyssal entity just by virtue of having killed Baphomet, Deskari, Nocticula, and being divine with a divine pantheon and then proceed to conquered all of it unopposed by the lesser and impotent Demon Lords. Then there's the fact you get Worldwound + Mendev on the prime, and access to crystal mines regardless of Nocticula.

The FRESH Nahyndrian Crystals are just the cherry on top of the cake. Even if they were missing, the Demon Commander's power is still unmatched from all the sources listed and the monopoly over the remaining crystal mines. You actually wouldn't be able to create more than a few new deities out of mortals using fresh ones before every other deity in the multiverse barring some declares war on the Abyss to stop you, which is where the alliances come in.

Ah, right, now THAT does explain it well enough. So Nocticulas power isn't actually the forming of the crystals, just keeping the Demon Lord soul at the place of its fall rather than it moving to the Rift of Repose.

Nahyndris (yeah, misremembered that too) death is described by the Storyteller when you ask about the Purple Stone Knife again in Act 4. He can recap the story if you'd like to review it.

I'm still a bit sceptical whether the Demon Commander could take the Rift of Repose but it's certainly a possibility. The whole story is about how the powerful can fall to their lessers and that could happen again.

Nocticulas power and Commanders power don't have a direct correlation but they both only work within the context of the story and don't exist in the wider canon of Pathfinder. Which is why both have to be true within context of the theory. If one does and the other doesn't, your just cherry-picking facts to suit your theory.

[Nautica Malone]

Originally posted by Applied Mediocrity:

Who (or what) killed Aroden is likely still around (provided that such things as time make sense here) and might very well decide to deal with the new troublemaker as well.
And if you're looking for cosmic explanation, that's the most likely candidate, too.

Most of the non-ascended deities have held their positions for countless eons or since the dawn of existence. A suddenly divine disappearance is an extreme anomaly that is not guaranteed to repeat itself, especially not for the Commander specifically. Aroden was hardly even that much of a troublemaker, he was certainly much less of one than Rovagug was, and kept a mostly hands-off approach from Golarion, so whatever his fate was, it is not particularly aimed at 'troublemakers' more than anyone else.

On the Pathfinder wiki page, leading theories concerning Aroden's fate are 1. Tried to vanquish Asmodeus or Rovagug, 2. Journeyed beyond the Outer Sphere, 3. reincarnated into a moral man in order to save humanity - None of those are causes for disappearance that should be very worrisome or relevant to the Demonic Commander's circumstances.

Sure, at some day in the future, Paizo's avatar could announce that every single God is going kaboom and the multiverse is restarted, but the speculation is not very useful for lore conjecture.

[Applied Mediocrity]

There's no need for future announcements. Windsong Testaments already describe Pharasma (the Survivor) and Yog-Sothoth (the Watcher), and how the Age of Creation began. That's not to say they are necessarily true, but that's the best we currently have.

[Nautica Malone]

Originally posted by Yannir:

Originally posted by Kenji:

So I did some delving but hit a roadblock and I can't find out more about the Tabletop lore of Nahyndrian Crystals without purchasing the sourcebooks, but Nahyndri was the first Demon Lord killed by Nocticula, and his Quasi-Soul became trapped in the Midnight Isles rather than the Rift of Repose ( The place you forgot the name of ), which does indicate that Nocticula has some kind of power or method to preserve it.

I should add that having just read about it again, the Rift of Repose itself is a hidden and unclaimed rift within the Abyss, guarded by Nalfanshees albeit one known to quite a few creatures across the plane who frequently attempt to infiltrate it and prevent demons from being resurrected, and in there, the Demon's power is fossilized as formations on the walls whose pictures look exactly as Nahyndrian Crystals do, suggesting that Nocticula ( Which she did say also ) is able to moor their fossils to her own realms as islands rather than allow them to become fossilized in the Rift. However, should one control all of the Abyss, one can also easily claim the Rift of Repose and all the crystals fossilized there over the ages.

The Demon Commander's power has nothing to do with Nocticula's crystal process being unique or not, don't know what gave you the impression. The Demon Commander's power stems from 1. The ability to become the most powerful Abyssal entity just by virtue of having killed Baphomet, Deskari, Nocticula, and being divine with a divine pantheon and then proceed to conquered all of it unopposed by the lesser and impotent Demon Lords. Then there's the fact you get Worldwound + Mendev on the prime, and access to crystal mines regardless of Nocticula.

The FRESH Nahyndrian Crystals are just the cherry on top of the cake. Even if they were missing, the Demon Commander's power is still unmatched from all the sources listed and the monopoly over the remaining crystal mines. You actually wouldn't be able to create more than a few new deities out of mortals using fresh ones before every other deity in the multiverse barring some declares war on the Abyss to stop you, which is where the alliances come in.

Ah, right, now THAT does explain it well enough. So Nocticulas power isn't actually the forming of the crystals, just keeping the Demon Lord soul at the place of its fall rather than it moving to the Rift of Repose.

Nahyndris (yeah, misremembered that too) death is described by the Storyteller when you ask about the Purple Stone Knife again in Act 4. He can recap the story if you'd like to review it.

I'm still a bit sceptical whether the Demon Commander could take the Rift of Repose but it's certainly a possibility. The whole story is about how the powerful can fall to their lessers and that could happen again.

Nocticulas power and Commanders power don't have a direct correlation but they both only work within the context of the story and don't exist in the wider canon of Pathfinder. Which is why both have to be true within context of the theory. If one does and the other doesn't, your just cherry-picking facts to suit your theory.

Yes, that makes the most sense. The game ( And tabletop written lore ) also inform us that Nahyndrian Crystals are the raw, encapsulated power of a Demon Lord in physical form, basically a vessel to transfer their innate soul power from the Demon Lord to another being, Nocticula just found/has a way of catching them before they go to the Rift. A Fresh crystal, much like a fresh steak, is more potent harvested from them while they are still alive rather than from their corpses, and Areelu's liquefied solution is an even more concentrated and pure essence ( As Areelu also explains ) than that.

As far as taking the Rift of Repose, that's what I spent so much time writing up in my post - all of the reasons why the Commander can take not just the Rift, but all of the Abyss. You already killed 3 of the strongest Demon Lords *as a mortal*, took over all of their realms and armies, and your own powers combined with Areelu's are *nearly equal to Pharasma, the strongest deity ever, according to pharasma herself*.

There's literally nothing stopping you from steamrolling the Rift and the rest of the Abyss. It's guarded by Nalfanshees of all things, but even if it was guarded by Demigods, you still have an absolutely enormous amount of divine power relative to any other deity according to game canon, AND your Mythic Demon armies from 3 different layers.

[Nautica Malone]

Originally posted by Applied Mediocrity:

There's no need for future announcements. Windsong Testaments already describe Pharasma (the Survivor) and Yog-Sothoth (the Watcher), and how the Age of Creation began.

Well, "The Windsong Testaments are parables written at Windsong Abbey, an interfaith forum and refuge led by a Masked Abbess. The Testaments are written as fables that speak to different faiths and do not necessarily depict reality".

Although I am not opposed to the idea that they do depict reality, I still don't see how that's going to be relevant for the Commander's rise to Overdeity status. Because the Multiverse will end and a new one will begin with a Survivor deity? Then the Multiverse is going to end for everyone no matter what at that designated time. That doesn't change the Commander's ability to rule said multiverse before its time is up. And hey, if the Commander happens to be the only major deity left, there's a high chance they are going to become the Survivor for the next multiverse.

[Applied Mediocrity]

I'm not disputing that you can become the Overdeity, as you define it. I'm interested in whether the Watcher or the Elder Gods in general will have and whether they can have something to say about it.
Also, if the multiverse ends and the cycle begins anew, your efforts are likely wasted, since new gods will arise.