Kingmaker vs Pillars of Eternity 2 for a CRPG noob?

[Durzo Gaelfire]

I am pretty new to the CRPG genre and have been itching to sink my teeth into a new game. I REALLY want to play Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous but with the enhanced edition right around the corner I plan on just waiting.

In the meantime I was interested in picking either Pathfinder Kingmaker up or Pillars of Eternity 2. I am mostly comfortable with D&D 5E and I have played a good amount of Divinity Original Sin 1 and 2. I have also played and loved the Dragon Age games.

Between Kingmaker and Deadfire which game would you recommend to a noob like myself?

[Fluffykeith]

Pillars 2, definately.

The complexity in Pathfinder can be a lot to deal with if you aren't used to the system and the kingdom management in Kingmaker is...an aquired taste (Wrath is so much better)

Pillars 2 is really good, and would be a better one to start with....then do Wrath once you're done with that.

[Durzo Gaelfire]

Originally posted by Fluffykeith:

Pillars 2, definately.

The complexity in Pathfinder can be a lot to deal with if you aren't used to the system and the kingdom management in Kingmaker is...an aquired taste (Wrath is so much better)

Pillars 2 is really good, and would be a better one to start with....then do Wrath once you're done with that.

This is actually what I am mostly leaning towards. I appreciate the response!

[Lonesomepoet]

If we're talking just those choices then Pillars 100% for a newbie as its much simpler. That said however I would suggest looking into Baldurs Gate 1 and go back to where it all started

[yacks]

Pillars of Eternity are amazing adventures, stories and awesome characters with depth. For me the combat is the worst custom combat system I've ever seen in an RPG, it is downright awful. To me it was something I wanted to get over with as soon as possible to get back to the adventure. Unlike DnD based core rules which are a fun tactical pleasure to execute

[Stink Bug]

If other games are an option and you want to learn the ruleset more, Temple of Elemental Evil is VERY similar to Wrath and Kingmaker played in turn-based mode. Neverwinter Nights 2 is more casual and RTWP but will also get you familiar with the ruleset (just bear in mind Pathfinder has a few key changes from DnD 3.5, Paladins using Charisma for spellcasting being one such bigger change).

[Averagedog]

Even though I would recommend Pillars 2 for a CRPG noob learning basic CRPG gameplay style, just be aware that the enjoyment for Pillars 2 mostly comes from the gameplay rather than the central plot. I had a lot of enjoyment from some of the side missions and quests, but the main questline has continued to sour on me over the years.

If you are experienced in playing Dungeons and Dragons, especially Dungeons and Dragons 3.5, Pathfinder games shouldn't be hard to pick up at all for you unless if you want to do a lot of multiclassing (which can get buggy very quick)

[Princess Pilfer]

Lol DnD 3.5 based combat (Including PF1, so Kingmaker and WotR) is an awful janky mess of prebuffs. Tactics don't really come into it, either you positively steamroll your opposition in like 12 seconds or you lose.


Anyways, yeah, Pillars 1 and 2 are really good. Pillars 1 has the better 'main' plot, Pillars 2's main plot is super thin, because the *actual* main plot is all of the big faction stories. (Think Dragon Age Origins or Fallout New Vegas, where the 'main' plot of actually dealing with the big bad is like 5 quests in total, the main thing you spend all your time doing is exploring the world doing faction quests to build up to being able to do that.) They are very different than WotR's combat though. They heavily favor in-combat-resource-management and tactical positioning. WotR is mostly about prebuffs and alpha-striking hard enough to kill things before they get the chance to wreck you.

[Durzo Gaelfire]

Originally posted by Princess Pilfer:

Lol DnD 3.5 based combat (Including PF1, so Kingmaker and WotR) is an awful janky mess of prebuffs. Tactics don't really come into it, either you positively steamroll your opposition in like 12 seconds or you lose.


Anyways, yeah, Pillars 1 and 2 are really good. Pillars 1 has the better 'main' plot, Pillars 2's main plot is super thin, because the *actual* main plot is all of the big faction stories. (Think Dragon Age Origins or Fallout New Vegas, where the 'main' plot of actually dealing with the big bad is like 5 quests in total, the main thing you spend all your time doing is exploring the world doing faction quests to build up to being able to do that.) They are very different than WotR's combat though. They heavily favor in-combat-resource-management and tactical positioning. WotR is mostly about prebuffs and alpha-striking hard enough to kill things before they get the chance to wreck you.

Honestly the pillars combat sounds waaaaaaaay more appealing to me.

[🪐Space_Owl🦉™]

I would recommend you to also check out Tyranny. It is a great crpg (No turn-based though) for someone new to the genre, great story and characters with impactful choices. It is a bit combat focused but not overwhelming, and easy enough to understand the basics of the genre. Also the combat is more active than in pillars or kingmaker, because there's no "rests" or spell preparation.

Otherwise if you are set on playing either pillars or pathfinder, definitely pillars. Pathfinder is great but a convoluted mess that requires some effort and time to understand but definitely beats the others in terms of build diversity and depth.

[Durzo Gaelfire]

Originally posted by 🪐Space_Owl🦉™:

I would recommend you to also check out Tyranny. It is a great crpg (No turn-based though) for someone new to the genre, great story and characters with impactful choices. It is a bit combat focused but not overwhelming, and easy enough to understand the basics of the genre. Also the combat is more active than in pillars or kingmaker, because there's no "rests" or spell preparation.

Otherwise if you are set on playing either pillars or pathfinder, definitely pillars. Pathfinder is great but a convoluted mess that requires some effort and time to understand but definitely beats the others in terms of build diversity and depth.

Thanks for the info! I will look into Tyranny as well.

[Gregorovitch]

If you've played plenty of 5e, Dragon Age Origins and DOS1/2 then you are not a cRPG noob by any stretch, what you are is a Pathfinder noob (like pretty much all of us were that haven't been playing Pathfinder on the table top for years) and the thing is neither PoE1 nor PoE2 are going to teach you anything worthwhile about Pathfinder given your experience.

If you don't want to dive into WotR right away I's say you have two options:

1. You could play Neverwinter Nights 2. Oldie but goldie but the real thing is it uses 3.5e rules so there is a lot of similarity to Pathfinder - much more so than 5e.

2. Dive into Kingmaker using it primarily as a Pathfinder training run.

Of the two I'd say your best bet is Kingmaker - if your goal here is basically to get ready for a WotR playthrough you might as well start learning Pathfinder. It will pay off hand over fist when you start WotR.

The most important thing to understand is that unlike 5e or DOS or the DA games in Pathfinder you can really, really mess up builds, find yourself completely screwed and have no idea why. It's littered with noob traps. You can also make incredibly overpowered builds that demolish everything in their paths if you know how. The difference between a well built and poorly built party is absolutely colossal in Pathfinder.

If you don't know how to build Pathfinder characters competently then your life will be a misery. If you do it will be fantastic. Because there are so many mistakes you can make they can stack on top of each other making the going heavier and heavier as you fall further and further behind the game's power curve.

Therefore my strongest advice to train up for WotR is to tackle Kingmaker and focus on studying build guides for the game, especially the for companions and other information on how to fight a Pathfinder party effectively. If you beat DOS2 on Tactician I would suggest starting on Challenging, if you beat it on Classic I would suggest Normal, and see how you go.

You want to aim, if you can, to play WotR on Core as this is the sweet spot for a maximally enjoyable adventure for a competent, but not expert, Pathfinder. That's why I suggest going for Challenging if you can manage it in Kingmaker, it will force you to study the system sufficient to attain the necessary competence.

[Durzo Gaelfire]

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

If you've played plenty of 5e, Dragon Age Origins and DOS1/2 then you are not a cRPG noob by any stretch, what you are is a Pathfinder noob (like pretty much all of us were that haven't been playing Pathfinder on the table top for years) and the thing is neither PoE1 nor PoE2 are going to teach you anything worthwhile about Pathfinder given your experience.

If you don't want to dive into WotR right away I's say you have two options:

1. You could play Neverwinter Nights 2. Oldie but goldie but the real thing is it uses 3.5e rules so there is a lot of similarity to Pathfinder - much more so than 5e.

2. Dive into Kingmaker using it primarily as a Pathfinder training run.

Of the two I'd say your best bet is Kingmaker - if your goal here is basically to get ready for a WotR playthrough you might as well start learning Pathfinder. It will pay off hand over fist when you start WotR.

The most important thing to understand is that unlike 5e or DOS or the DA games in Pathfinder you can really, really mess up builds, find yourself completely screwed and have no idea why. It's littered with noob traps. You can also make incredibly overpowered builds that demolish everything in their paths if you know how. The difference between a well built and poorly built party is absolutely colossal in Pathfinder.

If you don't know how to build Pathfinder characters competently then your life will be a misery. If you do it will be fantastic. Because there are so many mistakes you can make they can stack on top of each other making the going heavier and heavier as you fall further and further behind the game's power curve.

Therefore my strongest advice to train up for WotR is to tackle Kingmaker and focus on studying build guides for the game, especially the for companions and other information on how to fight a Pathfinder party effectively. If you beat DOS2 on Tactician I would suggest starting on Challenging, if you beat it on Classic I would suggest Normal, and see how you go.

You want to aim, if you can, to play WotR on Core as this is the sweet spot for a maximally enjoyable adventure for a competent, but not expert, Pathfinder. That's why I suggest going for Challenging if you can manage it in Kingmaker, it will force you to study the system sufficient to attain the necessary competence.

This was the absolute best response I have received so far in all 3 places I posted this question.

When I jump into Wrath finally I do plan on looking up some build guides. I also plan on downloading some type of mod that allows me to respec for free.

As of now it would be pretty difficult to look up builds with zero knowledge of the absolute basics of the game.

[Matt]

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

(snip)
2. Dive into Kingmaker using it primarily as a Pathfinder training run.
(snip)

That would be my recommandation too. Kingmaker is really a top-tier CRPG. And it's complex , but not as much as WotR. Quite the perfect introduction to the Pathfinder ruleset.

[Corbeau]

I found Pillars of Eternity 2 quite boring. As other have mentioned, it doesn't have any meaningful story that you could truly enjoy.

If you want an epic CRPG to start with, I would suggest playing Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. These games also have a system that is somehow similar to what you can find in Kingmaker, so you will be learning basics that will prepare you for Pathfinder series.

[Lonesomepoet]

Originally posted by Corbeau:

I found Pillars of Eternity 2 quite boring. As other have mentioned, it doesn't have any meaningful story that you could truly enjoy.

If you want an epic CRPG to start with, I would suggest playing Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. These games also have a system that is somehow similar to what you can find in Kingmaker, so you will be learning basics that will prepare you for Pathfinder series.

I agree 100% with this