How to build a decent necromancer?

[HaleMary]

I'm halfway through my third playthrough, which means I'm already planning my fourth :) Looking for new build approaches I haven't tried yet, I have been researching necromancy and find it underwhelming. Is there a way to make a good necromancer, or will I just be disappointed? And does a decent necromancer have to be the MC, or could it be a merc? For comparison I'm currently running Nenio as an enchanter and she's amazing. I play on core - might try hard next time but not really interested in unfair.

NOT A LICH
My second playthrough was a lich sorcerer, which was lots of fun. But I stuck to the lich spellbook which doesn't really care about DC or ray touch attacks. Is a non-lich necromancer viable?

DC
One big problem I foresee is getting DC high enough. With enchantment, illusion, and evocation there's gear and racial bonuses that bump your DC, but nothing for necromancy. Plus many of the necro spells target fortitude which is usually higher. I'd have to rely on arcane bloodline, expanded arsenal shenanigans, and touch of glory. I guess this is where you'd need your necromancer to be the MC to get mythic-path specific bonuses.

DAMAGE VS CC
My enchanter can disable an entire room, but necromancy seems to focus more on dealing damage. Ok fine, but compared to an elemental blaster again it seems underwhelming. Elemental nukers rely on draconic bloodlines as well as gear boosts which are unavailable to necromancers.

RAY TOUCH ATTACKS
And finally, many of the necro spells are rays, meaning I have to invest feats into making sure I hit.

Wow, typing this out it all sounds pretty negative compared with other arcane caster types. But I could be missing something! Do you have a necro build you like? How did you make it work?

Or maybe my approach is wrong and I should be looking at say a magus touch attack / weapon build focused on inflict and vampiric touch or something.

[MjKorz]

Necromancy is a school that combines ray, target and AoE spells, but to be a good necromancer you don't need to focus on ray casting: simply having extended true strike is enough (use a lesser rod).

To get spell DCs high enough, play a sorcerer and give Sosiel Glory domain via Impossible Domain mythic ability. Touch of Glory will grant you up to +20 Charisma (+1/ClericLevel). Also use expanded arsenal.

Non-lich necromancers lose access to several key disabling necromancy spells: Corrupted Blood which is a Nauseate effect that actually bypasses demon poison immunity (and yours so it's very prone to friendly-fire) and Embrace of Death which is a fancy Prone effect (meaning many enemies with wings are going to be immune), but still good. And of course you lose access to being able to dispel with very high CL and use Corrupt Magic which translates into effective spell DC that Necromancy needs. And you lose access to Absolute Death in the final stretch of the game (not a big loss since it comes online very late).

I highly advise against playing a non-lich necromancer: your only AoE crowd control spell effect is going to be Fear (via Fear and Banshee Blast spells) and it's extremely annoying to use as you will have to chase enemies that keep running away from you. Without Fear, most other necromancy spells are debuffs and direct damage spells. Necromancy debuffs (blind, exhaustion, level/ability drain, stagger, curse) are bad, because most bosses are immune to them with the exception of blind. Direct damage necromancy spells are a joke compared to hellfire ray and also require 30+ caster levels to be at least non-laughable.

My advice: if you want to play a necromancer, play lich. Otherwise don't bother. Necromancy is severely underpowered in this game compared to other schools of magic.

[Schlumpsha]

Other ways to play an necromancer is Demon for its general boost to DC during demonic rage and caster themed demon aspects. It's also fitting if you want to headcanon as an cultist of Kabriri. The Plagued Oracle curse nets an extra +2 to DC for disease spells. Which can be handy as necromantic Stigmatized Witch or Bone Oracle. Or go Legend for necro multiclass munchkin madness. Still, probably less powerful than going Lich.

A merc necromancer always pales compared to a MC one. At least a Dirge Bard merc would be useful due to its Secret of the Grave feature I guess.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Schlumpsha:

Other ways to play an necromancer is Demon for its general boost to DC during demonic rage and caster themed demon aspects. It's also fitting if you want to headcanon as an cultist of Kabriri. The Plagued Oracle curse nets an extra +2 to DC for disease spells. Which can be handy as necromantic Stigmatized Witch or Bone Oracle. Or go Legend for necro multiclass munchkin madness. Still, probably less powerful than going Lich.

A merc necromancer always pales compared to a MC one. At least a Dirge Bard merc would be useful due to its Secret of the Grave feature I guess.

While a Demon can get much higher spell DCs than a Lich, the biggest problem for a necromancer is not spell DC, it's lack of good spells which is why Lich is by far the best choice for a necromancer.

[Schlumpsha]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

While a Demon can get much higher spell DCs than a Lich, the biggest problem for a necromancer is not spell DC, it's lack of good spells which is why Lich is by far the best choice for a necromancer.

Lich is indeed the "best" choice, agreed. But it's not the "only" one present. Being a necromancer Demon or Legend are two alternatives, especially if OP plans to play on Core difficulty.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Schlumpsha:

Originally posted by MjKorz:

While a Demon can get much higher spell DCs than a Lich, the biggest problem for a necromancer is not spell DC, it's lack of good spells which is why Lich is by far the best choice for a necromancer.

Lich is indeed the "best" choice, agreed. But it's not the "only" one present. Being a necromancer Demon or Legend are two alternatives, especially if OP plans to play on Core difficulty.

You call throwing out a chunk of your spellbook an "alternative"? I'd call it "gimping yourself".

[Schlumpsha]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

You call throwing out a chunk of your spellbook an "alternative"? I'd call it "gimping yourself".

Erm.. good for you? Doesn't invalid other ways to play tho.

[Thicc Mittens]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Necromancy debuffs (blind, exhaustion, level/ability drain, stagger, curse) are bad, because most bosses are immune to them with the exception of blind. Direct damage necromancy spells are a joke compared to hellfire ray and also require 30+ caster levels to be at least non-laughable.

That was my experience making a necromancer. Anything strong enough to be worth spending time trying to debuff with level/stat drain etc was pretty much always immune (including some enemies that had no business being immune to that sort of thing). Anything not immune wasn't tough enough to bother weakening.

If I hadn't been on the Lich path I don't think my character would have felt very necromantic since casting regular necromancy spells did nothing so much of the time (and the ones that worked were surpassed by the mythic spells).

[Uzkin]

The regular necro spells Finger of Death and Wail of the Banshee are actually better damage than the lich mythic spells (when they work, i.e. when the enemy is not immune and fails its save). The level 9 lich AoE spell Negative Eruption cannot be empowered whereas Wail of the Banshee can, thus the latter is better. The level 10 lich single-target spell Absolute Death cannot be empowered whereas Finger of Death can, therefore the latter is again better. Here I'm only considering the damage part of these spells, of course.

Thus, the lich mythic spells are quite weak damage-wise. Not only are they weaker than the common non-lich necromancy spells (as mentioned above) but they are also weaker than the common evocation, transmutation etc. spells. Angel mythic spells also blow their lich counterparts out of the water, and demon / azata / trickster empower the potency of their spells far beyond that of the lich, as well. Example:

Lich, CL33 (= 20 class + 10 mythic + 2 Dark Rites + 1 School mastery)
Bolstered, Empowered, Maximized Exsanguinate
= 33*(max(d6) + 2)*1.5 = 396 damage
(this is so weak that a lich is better off using a regular non-mythic Finger of Death empowered instead, for 33*10*1.5 = 495 damage)

Angel, CL31 (= 20 class + 10 mythic + 1 School mastery)
Bolstered, Empowered, Maximized Bolt of Justice
= 31*(max(d12) + 2)*1.5 = 651 damage

And, say, a Hellfire Ray from a Trickster with Trick Fate and trickster crit feats active, would do FAR more damage than the above two spells COMBINED...

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Uzkin:

The regular necro spells Finger of Death and Wail of the Banshee are actually better damage than the lich mythic spells

They aren't. They do not ignore outright magic immunity while lich spells do and allow for a save which always carries a 5% failure chance. This is most noticeable in the DLC where some enemies have special magic seals that make them outright immune to all magic that does not ignore magic resistance.

Originally posted by Uzkin:

The level 9 lich AoE spell Negative Eruption cannot be empowered

It can be empowered via a greater empower rod you get in act 4 and also by the grandmaster's rod you get in chapter 5 for a total of 6 casts. That's more casts than you can get from empowered wail of the banshee (you will get very few of those casts since even when favored empower results in a +1 spell level increase). They can also be empowered with the help of plague of madness quarterstaff (cast a cantrip thrice on yourself before combat).

Originally posted by Uzkin:

The level 10 lich single-target spell Absolute Death cannot be empowered whereas Finger of Death

They are entirely different spells. Absolute death is an instant death spell, finger of death is a direct damage spell. You do not need to empower absolute death, you only need to have good spell DC.

Originally posted by Uzkin:

Thus, the lich mythic spells are quite weak damage-wise. Not only are they weaker than the common non-lich necromancy spells (as mentioned above) but they are also weaker than the common evocation, transmutation etc. spells.

All necromancy direct damage spells, be they lich spells or regular necromancy spells, are relatively weak. The unique lich spells are better than generic necromancy spells, because they deal the same damage while ignoring magic immunity and do not carry a chance of failure due to enemy rolling a natural 20. Evocation spells that are not hellfire ray are not stronger, because they do not scale past caster level 20 while some multiple necromancy spells do not have a CL limit. Evocation is stronger only due to hellfire ray.

Originally posted by Uzkin:

Angel mythic spells also blow their lich counterparts out of the water, and demon / azata / trickster empower the potency of their spells far beyond that of the lich, as well. Example:

Lich, CL33 (= 20 class + 10 mythic + 2 Dark Rites + 1 School mastery)
Bolstered, Empowered, Maximized Exsanguinate
= 33*(max(d6) + 2)*1.5 = 396 damage
(this is so weak that a lich is better off using a regular non-mythic Finger of Death empowered instead, for 33*10*1.5 = 495 damage)

Angel, CL31 (= 20 class + 10 mythic + 1 School mastery)
Bolstered, Empowered, Maximized Bolt of Justice
= 31*(max(d12) + 2)*1.5 = 651 damage

And, say, a Hellfire Ray from a Trickster with Trick Fate and trickster crit feats active, would do FAR more damage than the above two spells COMBINED...

You are right that angel spells and trickster hellfire ray spells are stronger, but your calculations are wrong, because lich can reach caster level 40. You are also not taking into account bolster which can be reduced to +0 spell level increase via favorite metamagic. And you're also not taking into account angel's "abolish X" spell damage which allows the angel to deal roughly 1k damage with justice spells, but this is still far below a proper hellfire ray caster.

Lich caster level:
20 from being a level 20 caster
+10 from mythic spellbook merge
+2 from dark rites
+1 from school mastery
+2 from the Storyteller's reward for completing his quest
+2 from goggles of mind control
+1 from fiery spell weaver staff
+2 from spell specialization

[Uzkin]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Originally posted by Uzkin:

The regular necro spells Finger of Death and Wail of the Banshee are actually better damage than the lich mythic spells (when they work, i.e. when the enemy is not immune and fails its save)

They aren't. They do not ignore outright magic immunity while lich spells do and allow for a save which always carries a 5% failure chance. This is most noticeable in the DLC where some enemies have special magic seals that make them outright immune to all magic that does not ignore magic resistance.

They are, when they work, i.e. when the enemy is not immune and fails its save. For some reason you chose to dishonestly remove that very relevant part of my post. Above, you can see the full quote, where I have added the relevant part back in and bolded it for clarity.

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Originally posted by Uzkin:

The level 9 lich AoE spell Negative Eruption cannot be empowered

It can be empowered via a greater empower rod you get in act 4 and also by the grandmaster's rod you get in chapter 5 for a total of 6 casts. That's more casts than you can get from empowered wail of the banshee (you will get very few of those casts since even when favored empower results in a +1 spell level increase). They can also be empowered with the help of plague of madness quarterstaff (cast a cantrip thrice on yourself before combat).

No, Greater Empower Rod does NOT work on Negative Eruption. Whereas it DOES work on Wail of the Banshee.

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Originally posted by Uzkin:

The level 10 lich single-target spell Absolute Death cannot be empowered whereas Finger of Death can. Here I'm only considering the damage part of these spells, of course.

They are entirely different spells. Absolute death is an instant death spell, finger of death is a direct damage spell. You do not need to empower absolute death, you only need to have good spell DC.

Lol, you snipped the relevant part of my post again while quoting me. You're a dishonest one, aren't you? Anyways, I added it back in again, bolded. As you can see, the point was to only compare the damage potential of lich vs. non-lich spells. Exsanguinate would be better suited for the lich-vs-non-lich necro spell comparison (since the lvl10 spells are available only for a very short time, late in the game). And I did that comparison too, later in my post.

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Originally posted by Uzkin:

Angel mythic spells also blow their lich counterparts out of the water, and demon / azata / trickster empower the potency of their spells far beyond that of the lich, as well. Example:

Lich, CL33 (= 20 class + 10 mythic + 2 Dark Rites + 1 School mastery)
Bolstered, Empowered, Maximized Exsanguinate
= 33*(max(d6) + 2)*1.5 = 396 damage
(this is so weak that a lich is better off using a regular non-mythic Finger of Death empowered instead, for 33*10*1.5 = 495 damage)

Angel, CL31 (= 20 class + 10 mythic + 1 School mastery)
Bolstered, Empowered, Maximized Bolt of Justice
= 31*(max(d12) + 2)*1.5 = 651 damage

And, say, a Hellfire Ray from a Trickster with Trick Fate and trickster crit feats active, would do FAR more damage than the above two spells COMBINED...

You are right that angel spells and trickster hellfire ray spells are stronger, but your calculations are wrong, because lich can reach caster level 40. You are also not taking into account bolster which can be reduced to +0 spell level increase via favorite metamagic. And you're also not taking into account angel's "abolish X" spell damage which allows the angel to deal roughly 1k damage with justice spells, but this is still far below a proper hellfire ray caster.

Lich caster level:
20 from being a level 20 caster
+10 from mythic spellbook merge
+2 from dark rites
+1 from school mastery
+2 from the Storyteller's reward for completing his quest
+2 from goggles of mind control
+1 from fiery spell weaver staff
+2 from spell specialization

Lol, my calculations were NOT wrong. It was an EXAMPLE showing how Angel spells are stronger than Lich ones. It was NOT a calculation of maximum caster level. I don't fathom how someone can read my post and not understand the point. Besides, your calculation above is strictly wrong for Exsanguinate and Bolt of Justice since mythic spells cannot be Spell Specialized into. If we were to use maximum CL and boni the result would favor Angel even more, thus validating my point even more.

As a side-note, Spell Specialization seems to be bugged atm anyway... my lich character has lost her Spell Specialization feat at some point, and now her character sheet is showing only a question mark where the feat should be. It's not just a graphical bug either, the spell I used it for no longer gains benefit from the feat.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Uzkin:

They are, when they work, i.e. when the enemy is not immune and fails its save.

The condition "when they work" is equivalent to a 0.95 average damage multiplier when compared with spells that offer no save, unless you make your spells persistent, but that will carry the cost of a spell level increase. You are wrong: non-mythic lich spells that have the same damage scaling formula (e.g. CL*10) will do less damage, because the enemy can always roll a lucky 20. You do not comprehend basic math.

Originally posted by Uzkin:

the point was to only compare the damage potential of lich vs. non-lich spells.

Which is a nonsensical "point" in the case of finger of death vs absolute death comparison. The damage potential of absolute death is infinite, the damage potential of finger of death or any other non-mythic lich spell is finite. You are comparing apples with oranges. You do not understand basic spell functionality. Absolute death deals more damage than any non-mythic necromancy spell.

Originally posted by Uzkin:

Lol, my calculations were NOT wrong. It was an EXAMPLE showing how Angel spells are stronger than Lich ones. It was NOT a calculation of maximum caster level. I don't fathom how someone can read my post and not understand the point. Besides, your calculation above is strictly wrong for Exsanguinate and Bolt of Justice since mythic spells cannot be Spell Specialized into. If we were to use maximum CL and boni the result would favor Angel even more, thus validating my point even more.

As a side-note, Spell Specialization seems to be bugged atm anyway... my lich character has lost her Spell Specialization feat at some point, and now her character sheet is showing only a question mark where the feat should be. It's not just a graphical bug either, the spell I used it for no longer gains benefit from the feat.

Your calculations are wrong, because they are not taking into account the full number of dice and bonus damage from bolster. Bolster carries no spell level increase when favorited and should always be used on a build that wants to deal direct damage via spells. Bonus damage from bolster scales with the number of dice: you get 33*2 bonus damage at CL33 and 40*2 bonus damage at CL 40. Moreover, the "abolish X" angel 1.5 damage multiplier multiplies the bonus bolster damage as does empower. Comparing spell damage at CL33 without bolster and without abolish multiplier means nothing.

In other words: your calculations are nonsense and demonstrate the lack of understanding when it comes to spell damage mechanics.

And I am not arguing that angel spells are stronger, this is a strawman you pulled.

I will re-check the rods later, but I do remember empowering negative eruption in a much earlier version of the game.

[Uzkin]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Originally posted by Uzkin:

They are, when they work, i.e. when the enemy is not immune and fails its save.

The condition "when they work" is equivalent to a 0.95 average damage multiplier when compared with spells that offer no save, unless you make your spells persistent, but that will carry the cost of a spell level increase. You are wrong: non-mythic lich spells that have the same damage scaling formula (e.g. CL*10) will do less damage, because the enemy can always roll a lucky 20. You do not comprehend basic math.

No, *you* don't comprehend basic English. I said: "The regular necro spells Finger of Death and Wail of the Banshee are actually better damage than the lich mythic spells (when they work, i.e. when the enemy is not immune and fails its save)." That statement is LITERALLY true. And it seems *you* don't comprehend basic math; your figure 0.95 is wrong when it comes to Finger of Death. Not terribly wrong though, unlike your other statements, so at least there's that.

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Originally posted by Uzkin:

the point was to only compare the damage potential of lich vs. non-lich spells.

Which is a nonsensical "point" in the case of finger of death vs absolute death comparison. The damage potential of absolute death is infinite, the damage potential of finger of death or any other non-mythic lich spell is finite. You are comparing apples with oranges. You do not understand basic spell functionality. Absolute death deals more damage than any non-mythic necromancy spell.

The comparison was, again, literally correct as stated. You just fail at reading comprehension. But, if you want a more fitting comparison, you can always see my Exsanguinate vs. Finger of Death calculations from my earlier post. Since, guess what, I did that as well.

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Originally posted by Uzkin:

Lol, my calculations were NOT wrong. It was an EXAMPLE showing how Angel spells are stronger than Lich ones. It was NOT a calculation of maximum caster level. I don't fathom how someone can read my post and not understand the point. Besides, your calculation above is strictly wrong for Exsanguinate and Bolt of Justice since mythic spells cannot be Spell Specialized into. If we were to use maximum CL and boni the result would favor Angel even more, thus validating my point even more.

As a side-note, Spell Specialization seems to be bugged atm anyway... my lich character has lost her Spell Specialization feat at some point, and now her character sheet is showing only a question mark where the feat should be. It's not just a graphical bug either, the spell I used it for no longer gains benefit from the feat.

Your calculations are wrong, because they are not taking into account the full number of dice and bonus damage from bolster. Bolster carries no spell level increase when favorited and should always be used on a build that wants to deal direct damage via spells. Bonus damage from bolster scales with the number of dice: you get 33*2 bonus damage at CL33 and 40*2 bonus damage at CL 40. Moreover, the "abolish X" angel 1.5 damage multiplier multiplies the bonus bolster damage as does empower. Comparing spell damage at CL33 without bolster and without abolish multiplier means nothing.

In other words: your calculations are nonsense and demonstrate the lack of understanding when it comes to spell damage mechanics.

Your poor reading comprehension is showing again. My EXAMPLE considered Angel vs. Lich comparison. Bolster was correctly calculated for both Bolt of Justice and Exsanguinate at the stated CLs and assumptions, thus *you* fail at math again. Using Abolish and maximum CL would only make my point even MORE valid: those would favor Angel spells over Lich ones even more -- feel free to do the required math if you don't believe me.

Originally posted by MjKorz:

And I am not arguing that angel spells are stronger, this is a strawman you pulled.

I will re-check the rods later, but I do remember empowering negative eruption in a much earlier version of the game.

Lol so now you are insisting that a comparison between Angel and Lich spells is a "strawman" when one wishes to compare Angel and Lich. How addled can you be? And Greater Empower Rod does NOT affect Negative Eruption. Nor Absolute Death. I have checked.

[Raikon]

The only reason Angel is a superior caster then lich, is because they can have charisma based memorized spells. This combined with charisma for Dex, charisma for deflection, and charisma for saves, makes for an absolute tank of a character.