Sorcerer or Magus for Melee/Magic build?

[daveyfunk]

2 questions really. 1 is about class and then about best subclass to suit my needs. I'm ideally wanting a character that's tanky/dps/support that can throw out a few spells but also get up close as a secondary tank. I've looked at the classes and Sorcerer and Magus seem to suit best with Eldritch Scion and Sword Saint looking like best subclass for playstyle from Magus and possibly straight up Sorcerer, but I'd still like any advice about strengths and weaknesses for possible builds if anyone has any idea? :)

[Raikon]

Messaggio originale di jsaving:

Messaggio originale di daveyfunk:

I'm also wondering about a melee Wizard. I guess that goes along the same line as the Sorc though?

Melee wizard is less common because you're unable to splash scaled fist for AC, but yes a melee wizard would have a pretty similar playstyle to a melee sorc.

You could splash student of war......

[daveyfunk]

Messaggio originale di MORROGANDER:

Messaggio originale di daveyfunk:

Thanks again all. Scion does seem to meet my criteria more so in general, but tempted by what everyone has said about the Sword Saint as seems more powerful. That said, I don't think anyone has said the Scion is a bad choice for DPS either, but more versatile. I'm also wondering about a melee Wizard. I guess that goes along the same line as the Sorc though? I love and hate these games as I spend more time planning than actually playing haha but building the character is the most fun part!!! :)

ES isn't bad it's just your build need to be specialized and planned to compare with SS.
If you are new to the system it's gonna be a frustrating hell doing days of research and respec

I'm thinking something like the following to start;
Eldritch Scion
Human
Osirian Historian (had no idea what I'm doing here)
Str 14 (think my spell damage still takes from strength even with finesse weapons?)
Dex 16 (possibly will use dex based weapon and finesse weapons also means spells attack rolls now dex?)
Con 12 (bit more health)
Int 8 (seemed most like dump stat?)
Will 10 (keep on a level for defences)
Char 18 (now main stat?)
weapon finesse
spell penetration
abyssal bloodline (really liked some of the abilities, particularly buffs from transformation)
Spells: shield (tankier) grease (CC)
deity: calistria (no idea what this does)
allignment: chaotic neutral (no idea what that does)

Does that seem fairly ok? Was looking for a fairly balanced build

[MORROGANDER]

I can point a few problems on this build, firstly you need to decide if you want a STR build or DEX build. one of them is your main damage stats, you pick one, not both.
abyssal bloodline is for STR, I see no point to run Str14, Dex16. You need at least 16 STR to make it work.

Another issue is Char build works poorly on this game.
How the is cc magus gonna work when every boss have 40+ reflex, freedom of movement or both around mid-late game and you only reliable cc chain of light/glitterdust/grease/web only have 30-35 DC
mathematically your cc only have 0-25% chance to succeed, you'd better just use a melee touch spell charged attack instead

I suggest you run 18str, dex14, char16. The play style won't change from what you are trying to do, it can still do cc with the same successful chance but you'll do more damage, you simply have to accept most bosses are immune to cc, cc only work on chaffs or some elite chaffs

my starting stats were 8str,20dex,15int and 7 char for sword saint

[Mira113]

Messaggio originale di jutschi78:

Magus in combination with elemental barrage could be solid on the paper, but you will need help with you attackbonus (shatter defense, brillant light weapons, skald/bard songs, touch of good domain bonus, mark of justice bonus and so on).

Magus gets dimension strike to target touch AC, brilliant energy to ignore armor, prescient attack to deny dex to AC, Arcane accuracy for spell casting attribute as insight bonus to attack and transformation to have full BaB, so they're not that dependent on help for their attacks.

A neat combo that can be done to give magus decent casting is the two wand magus arcanas to be able to use wands and have their DC increased by the magus's casting ability combined with Trickster rank 1 and 2 use magic device mythic trick to get infinite use wands and increase the caster level by your mythic rank.

[NewGame+]

Wizard/EDK/Hellknight Signifer was great for my first run. Very strong in Melee, A fair bit of HP. AC was crazy high as your in full plate and Dmg was also really high. I did go the lich path however and that helped a lot.

[mudakonn]

Yes, trickster seems like magus path because of wand wielder arcana, as i understand you can use ANY want in spell combat (chain lightning, fireball etc)

Like I stated before concentration is a big issue / and nobody is giving any advice on that - hate you to play with spell combat only to turn it off because of reperated concentration check fails - if You pick Bloodline Arcana and select mythic ability to take its capstone then you have all conentration problems solved in a instant.

If not then You NEED to pick combat casting feat like in char creation and You WILL fail checks still rather often more likeley in critical moments against strong opponents what most likely results your char killed besides wasted turn.

EDit: Magus is complicated class to play with, maybe start with Skald, Primalist, Bard they all have arcane spells and very straightforward mechanics how they play out and besides Lingering Song dont need any extra feats - and Skald/Bard have their own bonus feats to compensate.

[6h0$t942]

try Bloodragers. The subclass spelleater is fun for fast healing, and there is an amulet that gives blood ragers fast healing (stacks), and if its your MC you get the commander banner bonus. Their spell list is pretty ♥♥♥♥ sadly since they dont get blur or displacement (i had a huge WTF moment when i noticed...) but you can use use magic device and potions for that. I really enjoyed the serpentblood bloodline, focused on natural weapons. Im having fun with bloodrager serpent+ 1 thug +1 demonslayer. As long as you get shatter defenses and enemies are not immune to fear it is a fun class. Need all the cornugon smash and the fear related warrior feats. Keep an eye out for the natural weapons equipment.

You can go with crit sniffer sword saints too...i mean ive used them as well and they are solid...or you could turn into a massive hydra with omnom bite attacks.

[Kinzuko]

im playing through right now as an undead bloodline seeker sorcerer/signifier kitsune with the farmer background (for the scythe lmao) and am having great success, not necessarily the tank but between the heavy armor and the buff spells she is really hard to hit.

level 13 now and i have seen damn near 40 AC (not great if your playing unfair but i am not lol) out of that character and a lot of concealment and miss chance from illusion spells- also DR is really nifty when they do eventually hit... also false life is a great spell to keep going (the lich spell book equivalent especially)

[daveyfunk]

Messaggio originale di MORROGANDER:

I can point a few problems on this build, firstly you need to decide if you want a STR build or DEX build. one of them is your main damage stats, you pick one, not both.
abyssal bloodline is for STR, I see no point to run Str14, Dex16. You need at least 16 STR to make it work.

Another issue is Char build works poorly on this game.
How the is cc magus gonna work when every boss have 40+ reflex, freedom of movement or both around mid-late game and you only reliable cc chain of light/glitterdust/grease/web only have 30-35 DC
mathematically your cc only have 0-25% chance to succeed, you'd better just use a melee touch spell charged attack instead

I suggest you run 18str, dex14, char16. The play style won't change from what you are trying to do, it can still do cc with the same successful chance but you'll do more damage, you simply have to accept most bosses are immune to cc, cc only work on chaffs or some elite chaffs

my starting stats were 8str,20dex,15int and 7 char for sword saint

Thanks for this. Where do my spells attack rolls come from? Would that be dex or char? Reason I picked dex is I thought that was my attack roll stat for spells also? I'm not sure just yet if I'd use magic offensively or just defensively and so the str does seem important, but just want to make sure what's the important stat for the magic. Enjoying this game and only just gone through the difficulty options and making my character haha Don't wanna spend this time and then completely gimp myself!!! Also been looking at a melee based wizard as they seem even more flexible. Thanks again :)

[Princess Pilfer]

Azata is basically 'full caster only' if you want it's abilites to do anything, tbh.

Unless you want to suffer a fair bit, just play an offensive or CC full caster (sorcerer, wizard, ect.)

The Dragon (while she is the best companion in the game and my mind cannot be changed) is also quite weak for the overwhelming majority of the game, and the melee-specific azata buffs are easily matched or surpassed by just using buff spells.

Play an offensive or CC Wizard or a Sorcerer. If you want to be tankier, grab 4 levels of Dragon Deciple or 1 level of Oracle or Monk and cast spells/use gear that buff your AC. If you want to be *way* tankier, do that but play Sylvan Sorcerer so you get a pet and then spend 1 feat on Mounted whatever (it lets you make a mobility check to negate an attack that hit your mount) and make sure you've always capped out your Mobility skill. (If you're doing that you don't want your mount in melee range of enemies because you'll eat AoOs from casting. A better use of the pet is to use them as a frontliner but that makes you somewhat more vulnerable if you're targeted)

[daveyfunk]

Messaggio originale di Princess Pilfer:

Azata is basically 'full caster only' if you want it's abilites to do anything, tbh.

Unless you want to suffer a fair bit, just play an offensive or CC full caster (sorcerer, wizard, ect.)

Thanks for that. The playstyle I want is a battlemage, but I don't like the armoured battlemage set up in magus. I want the main to be an all rounder where they are tanky, but can CC mobs, attack with spells from distance, but then still have the flexibility to get up close and use weapon and magic...where the general advice seems splitting magic and melee is difficul, I'm thinking possibly changing up and having CC capability for mobs and then magic to support and getting in close with a two hander to then smash the enemy. Some debuff options would be nice :)

The mythic path I'm not too fussed, but I want something fairly neutral rather than having to align a certain way from the start.

I think the set up MORROGANDER says with str 18 dex 14 char 16 would suit the use magic to buff and str to get in and smash after paired with abyssal, but I'm wondering if something like str 10 dex 18 char 18 would be better for a melee/magic combo together. Spell combat would seem to suit using a finesse weapon and then looking at offensive touch spells when up close? Not sure what bloodline with the higher dex build though

If sorc or wizard has more debuff then that would allow me to debuff the enemy before going in and soften them up for some whacking maybe? :) I'd hope ES has some debuff cabilities, but I can always rely on my party for this sorta thing

[Princess Pilfer]

'All rounder' don't exist.
Either you invest your feats/levels/stats in being good at melee *or* you invest your feats/levels/stats in being good at magic. If you try to do both you'll just end up bad at both.

[Migromul]

What about Sorcerer/dragon Disciple... Able to use Dragonform II, get several attribut-buffs including strength and even can cast level 9 spell eventually.

Probably with the end-goal of Golden dragon?

[Princess Pilfer]

Doesn't make them an allrounder.

Like I said, you spend your feats/stats on increasing spell DCs, *or* you spend your feats on being good at melee. Can't do both. This is just as true for melee sorcerers at it is for magi or warpriests or clerics.

At best you can use scorching, hellfire and Polar ray if the enemy's regular AC is very high and they're immune to the other ways you'd target touch AC. But those don't do CC and basically all your your damage is gonna come from melee stuff. (Melee is actually better at damage anyways if you do it right)

[MORROGANDER]

Messaggio originale di daveyfunk:

Messaggio originale di Princess Pilfer:

Azata is basically 'full caster only' if you want it's abilites to do anything, tbh.

Unless you want to suffer a fair bit, just play an offensive or CC full caster (sorcerer, wizard, ect.)

Thanks for that. The playstyle I want is a battlemage, but I don't like the armoured battlemage set up in magus. I want the main to be an all rounder where they are tanky, but can CC mobs, attack with spells from distance, but then still have the flexibility to get up close and use weapon and magic...where the general advice seems splitting magic and melee is difficul, I'm thinking possibly changing up and having CC capability for mobs and then magic to support and getting in close with a two hander to then smash the enemy. Some debuff options would be nice :)

The mythic path I'm not too fussed, but I want something fairly neutral rather than having to align a certain way from the start.

I think the set up MORROGANDER says with str 18 dex 14 char 16 would suit the use magic to buff and str to get in and smash after paired with abyssal, but I'm wondering if something like str 10 dex 18 char 18 would be better for a melee/magic combo together. Spell combat would seem to suit using a finesse weapon and then looking at offensive touch spells when up close? Not sure what bloodline with the higher dex build though

If sorc or wizard has more debuff then that would allow me to debuff the enemy before going in and soften them up for some whacking maybe? :) I'd hope ES has some debuff cabilities, but I can always rely on my party for this sorta thing

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus

read this, this is the only guide you need to read about magus. Most video guides are poorly tested, sounds smart but never work in practice.
And even this guide isn't 100% fit when you major enemies are demons but it explains the basic play style, builds and mentality of magus. I'm sure you can easily adjust your build flexibly after reading and a few fights with demons.