Sorcerer or Magus for Melee/Magic build?

[daveyfunk]

2 questions really. 1 is about class and then about best subclass to suit my needs. I'm ideally wanting a character that's tanky/dps/support that can throw out a few spells but also get up close as a secondary tank. I've looked at the classes and Sorcerer and Magus seem to suit best with Eldritch Scion and Sword Saint looking like best subclass for playstyle from Magus and possibly straight up Sorcerer, but I'd still like any advice about strengths and weaknesses for possible builds if anyone has any idea? :)

[Babbles]

Yeah Sword Saint is pretty solid.

I get Prescient Attack at level 4(?), along with Finnean you ignore armour, Dex to AC and along with Shatter Defenses becomes pretty potent.

In Kingmaker I played an Eldritch Archer on Unfair, however there are a LOT of archers this time around.

[mudakonn]

ES is i guess more intresting to build - why not dabble with Arcane Rider? But mounted combat still could be the problem otherwise it is interesting choice.

And Skald of course fits tanky/dps/support description but spell selection could be the issue though as sponaneous caster they can use the rings that give more spells

With ES and Arcane Rider there is concentration problem - you need to roll concentration check and that blows one feat right away. Though there is a mythic ability that invalidates concentration checks completely - i believe Arcane bloodline capstone. Otherwise need to wait until ES capstone though concentration improves with ES levels as well.

When I tried it out then i managed to get killed too many times rolling 1- and 2-s back to back even with the mandatory feat that gives +4 to concentration

[Princess Pilfer]

You can't really "throw out a few spells."

Generally either
1: You go all in on increasing spell DCs and/or damage so your spells are actually good
2: You get good at melee and your spells suck.

You don't really get to have it both ways. A magus doesn't and shoulnd't 'throw out some spells' it uses buffs and maybe right clicks touch of faigue if you're using spell combat instead of a 2h weapon (but don't expect the spell to actually do anything, it won't, it's just you want the extra melee attack that's attached to it.) Similarly a melee sorcerer is going to have unusually low casting stats and is going to want melee feats which is going to make their non-buff-spells a lot less reliable than you'd hope.

[mudakonn]

Originally posted by Princess Pilfer:

You can't really "throw out a few spells."

Generally either
1: You go all in on increasing spell DCs and/or damage so your spells are actually good
2: You get good at melee and your spells suck.

You don't really get to have it both ways. A magus doesn't and shoulnd't 'throw out some spells' it uses buffs and maybe right clicks touch of faigue if you're using spell combat instead of a 2h weapon .

ES can do it since touch spells dont need DC-s i think. Spell penetration is though needed. And You fiddle with elements possibly getting 2 of them mythic and elemental barrage on top so you are dealing with one spell combat several different element damage procing barrage.

And Skald/Bard are focused on party wide support spells and contribute to melee as well.

[jutschi78]

You could go sorc/DD/ mystic Wartior if you want to cast more spells, but as princess states, it is dificult to shine in combat and spellcasting, because you don't have enough feats to be good in both (unless you go for buffs and utility, wich don't need many feats to be effective).

Magus in combination with elemental barrage could be solid on the paper, but you will need help with you attackbonus (shatter defense, brillant light weapons, skald/bard songs, touch of good domain bonus, mark of justice bonus and so on).

[Princess Pilfer]

Touch spells in fact do have DCs if they do anything except pure damage. And there are no good melee touch spells for pure damage. Also spell pen is actually not a small investment, it eats your shirt, an item slot, 2 of your 10 feats, and a mythic feat. And for what, acid splash?

Also I mentioned buffs. That's what Magi (except the archer) and warpriests and melee sorcerers and bards and such *actually* do with their spells, is a huge pile of buffs to help take the buff-burdern off of your cleric.

And if all they want is a bunch of self buffs, well lots of classes are good for that. Inquisitor, War Priest, Bloodrager, Magus, Hunter, Shaman, ect. (Also if you're exploiting elemental barrage you're using geniekind, divine power and crusaders edge.)

[Raikon]

Sword Saint is probably the tankiest, and highest physical damage dealing

Eldrich Scion is extremly good on the azata path.

Sorcerer can be a great tank with the lich, but most poeple wouldnt want thier arcane caster as a tank.

[Tribulation7X]

Now that Loremaster is working, magus can technically get 24h geniekind + blink + transformation on top of arcane enhancement which sounds op. You'll basically be playing full martial though, unless you spend arcane pool every turn to not use transformation and still hit things.

Sorcerer will need transformation even more than magus, so you still can't melee and magic at the same time. If you take EK or something to boost your AB, you won't get full CL so you'll have to Lich.

Imo the best class for this playstyle is oracle.

[Raikon]

how would loremaster help magus get 24 hour buffs exactly.

[Raikon]

Magus already gets blink and transformation, and arcane weapon gives you the elemental properties.

[Tribulation7X]

Originally posted by Raikon:

Magus already gets blink and transformation, and arcane weapon gives you the elemental properties.

Therefore you can dip Loremaster 1 and get geniekind. You get CL25 the regular way.

Geniekind doesn't add element to your weapon, it does an additional attack with that element every time you hit. Stacks with arcane enhancement so you can abuse EB even more.

[Drake]

Another option you can explore is the steelblood bloodrager. The bloodrager class is a very potent fighter/mage.

[Steffan]

Up to a 5th level on hard, a well build "melee" sorcerer (at least 14 strength and with proper defensive spells and very high charisma for later game) will have no problems. This also partially solves the problem of his limited spells at that level. Even a bit after that he can venture in melee against weaker opponents to save spells slots. Unlike a ranged sorcerer, you need little to no feat investment there. Later on you can specialize in spells and casting. As the game progresses, strength starts to play increasingly lesser role but as long as the charisma is sky high, you should not have any problems. Plus you may still have an occasional decent melee touch and not be easily disabled by strength drains.

The sorcerer main advantages are a barrage of quickened and normal spells all the way from 1 to 9th level. Magus is more of a fighter with spells that enhance his/her fghting capacity. That being said, a magus can be expected to hit something that a normal fighter will have severe difficulty touching (albeit for a little bit less damage).

[MORROGANDER]

Magus is probably the best melee class in this scenario because
1.every demon start from mid-game have insane amount of dex + nature armor AC. And you have abilities to negate both.
2. you can stack 80-90 AC, demons can rarely hurt you with non-aoe attacks.

most other melee classes would have trouble attacking any demon with 70+ AC and have pathetic AC to survive a few rounds in melee encounters

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2815525693

[daveyfunk]

Wow!!! Thanks for all the build advice and general advice :) Probably confuses me more with all the options haha but in a good way!!! General consensus would seem to be magic for support and melee for damage then? So I guess a slight tweak to my build would be looking at using magic to buff/CC? Is that possible, or would my magic still not have the penetration to CC effectively? Didn't seem a clear winner out of Sorc, ES and SS, even with a couple more options thrown in haha buuuut it seemed the general consensus is that ES or SS fits what I'd want more...maybe leaning more towards SS for damage, but ES for flexibility? I imagine if ES can get more spells using the Sorc line would this make it more viable for magic to buff/CC and weapon for damage? All options seem to be tanky enough? I'm thinking the SS is better for burst damage whereas the ES is more an all rounder? Thanks again :)

@MORROGANDER your build looks epic!!!

I'm thinking I'd want to go Azata for mythic path as like the thought of having a dragon companion :)