Shield tank VS Monk Dip

[atm]

I am really stuck on whether it is better to use an unarmored shield-user as a mercenary tank/ offtank (thinking dirge bard with a couple of dips), or instead take a monk dip and dual wield (or use a reach weapon for better attacks of opportunity).

Either way, it appears to be correct to not wear armor, since armor will impose a cap of roughly 3 on your dex bonus, and since you can get dex to at least +10, you might as well use archmage armor (or even +8 bracers) to get say 21 - 24 from your armor + dex, vs +17 from mithral full plate + dex. And if you can get your dex higher, the advantage goes even more to not wearing armor.

The benefit of a monk dip appears to be:
-A bonus feat
-Improved unarmed strike for free, so can take a background that gives a better bonus
-Flurry if using a monk weapon
-Offhand the +1 AC kama (I am not aware of a better weapon, let me know if there is one) for some more dodge AC
-Be evil and use the robe from fleshmarkets for another +3 dodge
-Charisma (or wis) to armor, which for a merc I am estimating I can get to about +8-ish, mainly because there are so few ways to raise mental stats (generally just enhancement, unless I am wrong).
-The possibility to benefit from the shield spell, which won't be available for most classes, so *maybe* +4 armor to shield. For my dirge bard tank I could take it as a wizard spell added to bard list with a loremaster dip, but not sure if it is worth it to waste a dip for a first level spell.

Adding up all those, I get to about +12 from the dip (or +16 if I can get the shield spell).

The benefits of a shield user appear to be:
-+7 to +9 for a late-game shield
-+5 AC from maxed out magical vestment: shield
-+1 from shield focus
-The option to take shield bash for bashing finish etc, could be nice on a sneak attacking or geniekind stacking build as it could add up to a ton of extra attacks
-Some other benefits from various magical late-game shields

Adding those up, I get to about +14 (late game) from the dip.

Overall, it kind of looks like you might as well take a shield, provided it is a mercenary. I think it is a different matter on a main character, since you have access to more ways to raise your stats (potion of +2 to all, profane ascension, possible stat boosts from mythic path), meaning the charisma-to-armor should be more effective since you can potentially have a lot more charisma.

Wondering if there is anything I have missed, that might tip the scales one way or the other. If using a shield is about on par with having a monk dip, it seems to me that you can use that level of monk for something else that adds more versatility, like loremaster to learn divine power or eaglesoul, or so on. Thanks in advance.

[Aria Athena]

I think the best you can do with a shield when it comes to AC, is go Tower Shield Specialist. 11 levels should allow you to have a 10 Dex bonus to AC while wearing Mithral and yielding a Tower Shield. Can go up to 13 if you take more levels in TSS.

[atm]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

I think the best you can do with a shield when it comes to AC, is go Tower Shield Specialist. 11 levels should allow you to have a 10 Dex bonus to AC while wearing Mithral and yielding a Tower Shield. Can go up to 13 if you take more levels in TSS.

Thanks, hadn't thought about going tower shield. I would probably still go no armor since I would need to take armored caster feats to cast in plate as a bard, and I would like to keep a reasonable caster level.

[HopeJesus4evs]

You forgot one really important thing for monk dip:
Mage armor.
WIth mythic feat (archmage armor) and vestment (yes, it works, even though it shouldn't), it gives you a whooping 19AC + DEX and WIS, which is way more than any armor and shield can give you. So as far as optimization goes, it's a no-brainer if you ask me

[atm]

Wowzer my dirge bard has turned out to be pretty badass (playing on unfair). Nearly 2k hours in this game and I haven't given dirge bards enough credit!

The merc is L9, so somewhat feat-limited in what I could squeeze in. For a while I was going to go monk dip, but tried a few variations and decided to try using armor and shield (for now) and taking a thug dip, since the actual armor difference doesn't seem worth it at this level. (He's Dirge Bard 7, Stig. Witch 1, Thug 1). Trying to leave room to take Scaled Fist by the end so I can swap to dex tanking when it overtakes armor and shield.

His armor is 43 when buffed, more when defensive fighting, which is OK for Act 2 in my opinion (it's behind my leopard tank by just a couple of points). He's an aasimar, so I'll pick up wings in a couple of levels for another +3. Worth also noting he has the option of +4 form the defensive bard song later on. I'm using the signet of house vespertillio to give him +5 persuasion, and am going all in on intimidation abilities, and with the thug dip it's a pretty insane way to offtank. Just 4-manned the gargoyle cave (effectively 3 manned since my main wasn't doing anything useful) by getting him to stand in the middle and spam dazzling display. The thug dip basically meant that the entire cave of gargoyles was pretty constantly feared (including the high cleric), just running around like crazy things. My usual non-cheese strategy for dealing with that area is to guarded hearth then greater invisibility and try and machine gun everything down with ranged weapons before they can swarm me, but this time not only did I take down the gargoyles, most of Regill's troop ended the fight alive as well :/

It's quite a balancing act, but I have held back on taking crane-style feats in the expectation I will get it later on with the monk dip.

[mna99]

You're forgetting some potential AC for taking Scaled Fist:

Touch of Glory (lol) can give you up to +10 AC on top of whatever other Charisma bonuses you get.
Due to a bug with Magical Vestment, you can use it on an unarmored character and still get up to +5 Armor AC that will stack with Mythic Mage Armor.

Plus +8 (26) is a pretty conservative figure for a mental stat. I have an Instinctual Warrior mercenary with 33 Wisdom before raging, for example.

21 base
+2 racial (Hungerseed)
+2 Inherent (Tome of Understanding)
+2 Profane (Profane Invocation, from Demon path)
+6 Enhancement (Headband of Reshaping)

And I'm sure others have done better. In any case, you should be able to get into the low-to-mid 30s on a mental stat depending on your path and the stat bonuses that come with it, before taking Touch of Glory into account.

[atm]

Thanks mna99, some good points.

I am reluctant to use the touch of glory effect, as I believe (?) it is working in a way it shouldn't, so I try and use other strategies. (The ability says it should buff one charisma check by your level, and not boost charisma by your level as it is doing).

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by atm:

I am reluctant to use the touch of glory effect, as I believe (?) it is working in a way it shouldn't, so I try and use other strategies. (The ability says it should buff one charisma check by your level, and not boost charisma by your level as it is doing).

Yep, it's broken, in every meaning of the word.

[Raven]

Originally posted by mna99:

You're forgetting some potential AC for taking Scaled Fist:

Touch of Glory (lol) can give you up to +10 AC on top of whatever other Charisma bonuses you get.
Due to a bug with Magical Vestment, you can use it on an unarmored character and still get up to +5 Armor AC that will stack with Mythic Mage Armor.

Plus +8 (26) is a pretty conservative figure for a mental stat. I have an Instinctual Warrior mercenary with 33 Wisdom before raging, for example.

21 base
+2 racial (Hungerseed)
+2 Inherent (Tome of Understanding)
+2 Profane (Profane Invocation, from Demon path)
+6 Enhancement (Headband of Reshaping)

And I'm sure others have done better. In any case, you should be able to get into the low-to-mid 30s on a mental stat depending on your path and the stat bonuses that come with it, before taking Touch of Glory into account.

this advice aged poorly :P

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by Raven:

this advice aged poorly :P

What did they change, did they finally fix the touch of glory bs?

[Raven]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

Originally posted by Raven:

this advice aged poorly :P

What did they change, did they finally fix the touch of glory bs?

It's literally this patch notes like 3 hours ago, yeah. They fixed it and there is a few topics on it

[mna99]

Originally posted by Raven:

It's literally this patch notes like 3 hours ago, yeah. They fixed it and there is a few topics on it

Wow, really? I didn't even know! They never fixed it for Kingmaker (to my knowledge).

Looks like they'll have to update Tabletop Tweaks then.

Did they fix the Magic Vestment exploit too?

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by mna99:

Did they fix the Magic Vestment exploit too?

I think Vestment works as intended.

[DefendOfTheMothers]

well im maybe will say thats will going into rage for most users but this game dont have|dont need "tanks" at all(especially on high lvls with step by step mode) coz u dont have options to get all damage on one character and in the end(if we gonna consider ALL game and not the scenes when creeps is stupid enough to just attack who they was see 1st) Monk is much more better choice as tank (well as this game allow u to be) coz u have much more movement options and combat options like low kicks and grab etc with KI and all rest about Monk is just more usefull. BUT!
if we gonna talk about damage too then warrior ofcoz is better with dice on attack when monk on full AC will missing all hits

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by DefendOfTheMothers:

well im maybe will say thats will going into rage for most users but this game dont have|dont need "tanks" at all(especially on high lvls with step by step mode) coz u dont have options to get all damage on one character and in the end(if we gonna consider ALL game and not the scenes when creeps is stupid enough to just attack who they was see 1st)

I'm going to respectfully and strongly disagree with the aforementioned statement.

[DefendOfTheMothers]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

Originally posted by DefendOfTheMothers:

well im maybe will say thats will going into rage for most users but this game dont have|dont need "tanks" at all(especially on high lvls with step by step mode) coz u dont have options to get all damage on one character and in the end(if we gonna consider ALL game and not the scenes when creeps is stupid enough to just attack who they was see 1st)

I'm going to respectfully and strongly disagree with the aforementioned statement.

im will accept that as well(moreover its like often thing about)
but when u play table game and GM is not so kind like here he can just kill ur oracles healers with 1 round while ur tank is full plate glorius hero man)