Choosing DEX vs STR based two handed build

[Razer]

So I'd like to hear some pros and cons of each. Not specifically looking to min max so not looking for "X is terrible or Y is the best ever". Just looking for what the advantages are of both and perhaps also what the limitations of both are when you're building a two handed character. I know both are possible as I've built them before. Of course Dex relies on finesse wielding, but they can be two handed as well.

[Razer]

Originalmente postado por jsaving:

Originalmente postado por Razer:

How does STR scale better than DEX? That's only true if you use Fencing/Slashing Grace, which I would not suggest for a two handed weapon. Better off using Finesse Training or Mythic Weapon Finesse to get the full bonus to dmg.

The game grants 1.5x STR bonus when wielding a two-hander, which doesn't become 1.5x DEX bonus when finessing.

That's not true. When you use Mythic Weapon Finesse or Finesse Training you do get the 1.5 bonus from DEX to damage when two handing a weapon. You don't get it from the Grace feats for some reason. Hence you don't want to use the Grace feats when translating DEX to damage when two handing.

Originalmente postado por MjKorz:

Originalmente postado por Razer:

I just don't like lowering my STR below 11.

Try a 5 STR Kitsune dexterity based MutationWarrior19/Monk1 or ScaledFist1.

I cringe at the thought of having a character that isn't strong enough to lift itself out of bed.

[MjKorz]

Originalmente postado por Razer:

cringe at the thought of having a character that isn't strong enough to lift itself out of bed.

Nenio has 5 strength and she can't uncork a bottle of wine in her quest.

[Razer]

Originalmente postado por MjKorz:

Originalmente postado por Razer:

cringe at the thought of having a character that isn't strong enough to lift itself out of bed.

Nenio has 5 strength and she can't uncork a bottle of wine in her quest.

lol

[provokastoras]

there are class depended concerns on damage too.
smite+ sneak classes work better with 2 weapons more attacks more times smite/sneak damage apples.
weapon specialisation also applies more bonuses with more attacks.
there are also practical concerns.... ie how often you can full attack 2 handed builds and vital strike builds will always do more damage in every situation you can only attack once, cause ie your opponent move, you need to reposition etc. though this can be fixed when dual wielding with ranged weapons like hand axes or darts
multiple attacks means DR applies multiple times few strong attacks mean less damage lost to damage reduction. again though ranged builds with cluster shots just get the better deal.
in the end is a matter of choice and how you want to build your character. either build can be extremely powerful.

[Razer]

Originalmente postado por provokastoras:

there are class depended concerns on damage too.
smite+ sneak classes work better with 2 weapons more attacks more times smite/sneak damage apples.
weapon specialisation also applies more bonuses with more attacks.
there are also practical concerns.... ie how often you can full attack 2 handed builds and vital strike builds will always do more damage in every situation you can only attack once, cause ie your opponent move, you need to reposition etc. though this can be fixed when dual wielding with ranged weapons like hand axes or darts
multiple attacks means DR applies multiple times few strong attacks mean less damage lost to damage reduction. again though ranged builds with cluster shots just get the better deal.
in the end is a matter of choice and how you want to build your character. either build can be extremely powerful.

I understand the pros and cons of dual wielding vs normal attacks with higher inflated base stats, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking for insight into two handing with either DEX or STR.

[provokastoras]

I guess am sleepy...
In damage output I am not even sure how a dex build can compete if the number of attacks is same ie you are using a falcion in both cases. (and yes you can get mythic finance and use falcion instead of elven curved blade... though one wastes a normal feat the other a mythic feat so I ld be more inclined towards the first.
Also an eldrich scion with abyssal bloodline that gets dragon as second bloodline and splashes some levels on dragon disciple then goes hagbound witch on his second tree can get an obscene score of 60str without any buffs in the game.... which is not something a dex build can match.... that being said you can boost your dexterity to the 40s in act 4 with profane ascession and by helping the lady of filth.... if you don't feel like doing shenanigans of that type.
For buffing there is miniature proportions from trickster path, though i am not sure nocticula will let you keep your bonuses from profane ascention if you remain a trickster.
being frontline in core difficulty is not an issue with either route provided you buff correctly so I would suggest str in such a case. Cause it coffers a clear advantage in damage output.
however with profane ascension shenanigans you can do a pretty valid dex build. And I don;t remember if demons can start profane ascession in act 3... it think they can, in which case you will also be ahead of the curve... provided you are not comparing it to a solo run.

[Raikon]

Yeah a better comparison to be made would be 2handed vs dual wielding. As far as pure damage is concerned strgnth is much higher. Its just a question of what you value more.

[Raikon]

I dont really value inaititive all that highly, while other players place it among the top of thier values. Neither stregnth or dex wins for me.

I do value AC, and reflex saves. So Dex wins for me there.

Its hard to value base damage all that highly. So many bonuses/multipliers, reductions, it really boils down to who is wearing the spirit ring. However, back tot he multipliers, Finessable wpns tend to not have great multipliers, also they require feats. Stregnth wins here for damage.

I dont really value attack bonus all that much. To many bonuses exist in this game to make your own characters attack all that important. Unless your solo of course, then I highly value it. I'm assuming this thread is based on party combat though. Neither Dex or Stregnth win here.

I value trickery, stealth, and mobility. You get more skills via dex, so dex wins there for me.

So between the war of stregnth and dex utilizing a 2 hander, Dex is the winner to me.

[Tao314zdin]

Does dex really win that much in AC though?

If you go heavy - you get something around 16 AC from armor+dex_limit vs with dex you have dex_bonus + mage_armor which would likely be around 30 or so in the end-game.

I mean 14 AC is not a small number, but for core it should not be detrimental in any way as in principle you can overshoot everything by like 50-60 AC or even more if you go full-meta.

Of course wearing armor also cuts down on shenanigans like double-dipping (or even quadro with smites) into charisma, but that is beyond the dex vs str topic.

[Maple]

As others have stated, STR builds have better damage output due to size increasing spells among other things. DEX builds get slightly higher AC but at a cost.

DEX Two Handed Weapon User has one of the most miserable early game experiences- unless you're willing to waste early feats or respec, they wait until midway through act 2 to become a functional build. (And it's even worse if you had *any* other mythic feats you wanted to take). And in general Mythic Feats add a lot to martials, so spending one just to do what a STR build can do by default is a big ask.

They end up slightly tankier than a STR build, for sure, but honestly it's not that much of a difference on the higher difficulties, without further minmaxing. You're still going to be hit pretty often by any demon worth a damn. Which means either investing in control spells / summons to keep the enemy from attacking, or Last Stand, which means you might as well be running a STR build.

I've been really disappointed when I tried it, and have generally had better luck with STR based Mutation Warriors when I want to be a moderately tanky high damage 2handed weapon user.

Despite all this I think the DEX 2 hander build is ultimately *fine*, you do get real nice initiative, reflex saves, and the AC does help with the smaller fights. You just have to go through a lot of effort to get something that is just *fine*.

[malkavius77]

Honestly dex for AC is kinda overrated you won't get that much more with a dex build. Typically I might use dex for early game where AC and spell buffs are much more limited and then switch to STR mid game but even then I rarely go dex. Also you have to burn 2 feats or class dips to do significantly less damage for marginal AC gains.

[Maple]

Originalmente postado por Tao314zdin:

Does dex really win that much in AC though?

If you go heavy - you get something around 16 AC from armor+dex_limit vs with dex you have dex_bonus + mage_armor which would likely be around 30 or so in the end-game.

I mean 14 AC is not a small number, but for core it should not be detrimental in any way as in principle you can overshoot everything by like 50-60 AC or even more if you go full-meta.

Of course wearing armor also cuts down on shenanigans like double-dipping (or even quadro with smites) into charisma, but that is beyond the dex vs str topic.

Yeah, it's even worse when you consider a STR build is still going to have a pretty easy time starting with, say, 12 DEX, and is still going to want to have every DEX buff available to them- There's a lot of +STR/DEX belts in the game. So really, all the AC you're missing out on is the difference in starting DEX from not having 19/20 DEX at the start + the 2 points of AC from putting level ups into DEX. Which ends up being 6, maybe 7 points of AC difference.

Which is nothing compared to what you're being hit with.

And with this principle even STR fighters can happily run archmage armor and charisma AC shenanigans. They've still got enough DEX to make it worth it.

[hilburnashua]

Pretty sure Dex to damage gets modified the same as Str to damage for two handed weapons. I was playing with a really weird build for Camilla that had her using a elven curved blade with mythic improved critical and greater mythic vital strike. At lvl 13 (maybe 14) she was dealing almost 300damage on a critical hit on vital strike. I would have liked to continue playing with her build but she ... ahem .. had to leave my party shortly thereafter.

[Razer]

Originalmente postado por hilburnashua:

Pretty sure Dex to damage gets modified the same as Str to damage for two handed weapons. I was playing with a really weird build for Camilla that had her using a elven curved blade with mythic improved critical and greater mythic vital strike. At lvl 13 (maybe 14) she was dealing almost 300damage on a critical hit on vital strike. I would have liked to continue playing with her build but she ... ahem .. had to leave my party shortly thereafter.

It doesn't get the extra 50% if you use the fencing feats to translate to damage. Should be easy to tell. With a +4 bonus to dex it should give +6 bonus to damage. I've tested this with different options. Mythic Weapon Finesse translates it correctly and so does Finesse Training. But Grace feats do not. But Camellia uses a rapier and that's a single handed weapon. So you'd never notice anything different.

[malkavius77]

Originalmente postado por Raikon:

It depends on what you are playing. This conversation was started in the Sword Saint thread, but the answer there was to go Intelligence.

No it wasn't nor has that ever been the case for kingmaker or wotr.