Owlcat is a bad DM #9001

[Boner Storm]

So I was wondering if anyone else noticed that the "Core" difficulty is BS and bears zero resemblance to actual core Pathfinder rules encounter design. That mobs routinely have massive buffs to all their stats for no reason.

So I wrote a negative review after a really annoying encounter with some skeletons that had +10 Natural Armor for no reason at all... and I found that a bunch of other people noticed the same thing. Apparently there's a no-name mob with EIGHTY ONE AC in the late game. (EDIT to explain: by Core rules Skeletal Champions are supposed to have +2 Nat Armor but these had +12 - the difference between Lann the Zen Archer hitting 5% of the time vs 40% of the time)
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197971589114/recommended/1184370

So... what kind of BS min-max builds are people running to keep up with the bad game design?

I'm running a Scaled Fist 2/Paladin 3/Aldori Swordlord 5/Aldori Defender 10 build (I'm three levels into the latter) with Crane Style, Cornugon Smash and Shatter Defenses.

Everyone is buffed with all the usuals including Good Hope... what am I missing? What kind of nonsense cheese should I be running to make this game playable?

[Aria Athena]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Boner Storm:

How, pray tell, do you get 80AC or over 100AC in PNP Pathfinder?

With a sorc probably for one. If you can get to like 140 in kingmaker in a party, 80 shouldn't be that hard in pnp.

[forkofspite]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Aria Athena:

80 shouldn't be that hard in pnp.

No.

This game has items and abilities that simply don't exist in tabletop. That being said (and I'm pretty sure it's already been mentioned), different people have different definitions of "Core". Some people are trying to compare numbers in this game to tabletop whereas Owlcat's Core refers to mechanics such as crits doing full damage, no death's door, and permanent conditions that don't automatically clear with rest.

The actual mechanics of combining the numbers is the same (exceptions certainly exist though such as magic vestment stacking with armor), but tabletop simply doesn't have the items and abilities that are required to achieve these numbers. Classifying the CRPG as "power gaming" would be a vast understatement.

[jasons073]

I did my first playthrough of the game (Lich path) on core, and while it was a fun challenge at first, I agree with OP that stat inflation was ridiculous, especially in the later chapters of the game and the DLC, where it became a huge slog and made things more tedious than fun.

Having accomplished it once, I don't think I could stomach another core playthrough, and would probably run all future playthroughs on normal (with some minor adjustments to make things, including companion death, closer to PNP rules).

[Raikon]

Lich should be the only path that has no business at all complaining about stat bloats. Seriously bro, the more powerful the enemy, the more powerful your ally. To make it worse, the creatures you rez are even more stat bloated because of lich bonuses/spells.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Well...
Dunno what and how i missed, but apparantly i chose on every friggin logistic choice wrong choices, so no warehouse. Since it needs about 5 hours of reloading...nope. (I think this is why i stopped playing Kingmaker.) There was no frigging talk of a warehouse ever....:( Not like when Sheela was talking about monuments and Regis about gallows...wth? How the hell am i supposed to figure out which option gives me the warehouses? Save and reload just for this....whereas during relic enchantment i can see what i get? ...fffff

Also i finished before this blackwater (aka We are the Borg).
Dunno it did not really fit into the setting i would say. But this is just my oppinion.

Regarding the AC...i...seriously have no clue why it was bumped up that high. Basicly most fights took long...but were doable with some tactics and strategies. Allthough i was lucky i brought Greybor with me since he has in one hand an adamantine weapon, if you can keep him away from being aggroed he can finish off anyone. Also the shadow demon summoning ring (cast level 6 spell and shadow demon summon assists) helped a lot too, was awesome damage soaker, as nobody but the succubi could hurt it.

Dunno i would say there are some deliberate designs that have only the sole purpose to make you WASTE time.

[Boner Storm]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Raikon:

Also I just read you seem to think student of war dip was for an exploit. It definately was not. 2 levels of student of war allows you to use your intelligence modifier, instead of dex for AC.

Which is actually an exploit. Student of War's Int for Dex is only supposed to apply if you're wearing armor or using a shield - which would turn off your Monk AC bonus. It's designed that way on purpose but Owlcat apparently can't read.

[Gregorovitch]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Tao314zdin:

Well yes and no. The thing is chess/go have large volatility - a small difference in moves can avalanche to completely different outcomes quickly.

The game however has an extremely low volatility guided by the stat-check core of its design (bigger number win). Imagine chess where every figure has AC and AB, well most of the tactics will be out of the window since only the highest figures will be able to do anything and they will roll though the rest as they were not there.

Now is there a better balance between tacticless stat-check and high-volatility of chess/go that is difficult for AI? IMO it should be.

Interesting comment. I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean by "volatility" so I thought I'd ask you to define what you mean rather than try to guess.

[Yannir]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Gregorovitch:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Tao314zdin:

Well yes and no. The thing is chess/go have large volatility - a small difference in moves can avalanche to completely different outcomes quickly.

The game however has an extremely low volatility guided by the stat-check core of its design (bigger number win). Imagine chess where every figure has AC and AB, well most of the tactics will be out of the window since only the highest figures will be able to do anything and they will roll though the rest as they were not there.

Now is there a better balance between tacticless stat-check and high-volatility of chess/go that is difficult for AI? IMO it should be.

Interesting comment. I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean by "volatility" so I thought I'd ask you to define what you mean rather than try to guess.

He's probably referring to the fact that every piece can eat every other piece if the conditions are right. A pawn can eat a queen if a queen lands in the wrong square. Which can create an imbalance of power that is just as easily reversed.
If they had AC and BAB, the queen piece would be practically unbeatable by any other piece except the opposing queen or king. Less volatile.

[Boner Storm]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Aria Athena:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Boner Storm:

How, pray tell, do you get 80AC or over 100AC in PNP Pathfinder?

With a sorc probably for one. If you can get to like 140 in kingmaker in a party, 80 shouldn't be that hard in pnp.

Yah nope. You don't know PF rules so spare me your attempts to talk about them.

Object lesson:
Even a sorc with 10AC base, +8 Bracers of Armor, +8 Natural Armor from Form of the Dragon III, +5 Natural Armor Amulet, ROP +5 deflection, +4 Shield spell, +2 Insight from Foresight, +6 Mithral buckler, +1 from Dodge feat... now let's say you've got 35 Cha and 29 Dex with +5 inherent bonuses from Wish and a 1-level dip in Scaled Fist... total AC of 70.

Basically you have to scrabble together your entire build and a bunch of spells/gear to get your AC that high... use up a feat you could have used on something to improve your casting... pay for TEN WISHES... +12 of that AC is from minute/level spells.... AND you miss out on an extra level's worth of 9th-level spells.

But even with a COR +5 all of that only gives you a reflex save of 24 so you'll still eat ♥♥♥♥ half the time when a dragon BAMFs you with a breath weapon. Your fort save will be like +12 so you can also enjoy being suffocated by a wizard with half your level.

Apparently after researching it one guy claims you can get up to 82 AC as a synthesist summoner with base rules by wasting all of your evolutions on extra Natural Armor (which is practically criminal). With cheese and situational stuff (like Nocticula's profane gift, UMD for a scroll of Dance of a Hundred Cuts, Total Defense, and borrowing the dual morningstars of the Herald of Freedom and Justice... that's 99 AC.

Point being: nope. Not possible to have over 100AC in PF base rules.

(he claims you can get another +12 AC from enchanting those legendary morningstars to have Defending but loool no GM would allow it)
https://old.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/5kctus/build_the_highest_ac_pc_imaginable/dbn3k28/

[Gregorovitch]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Boner Storm:

Normal people play roleplaying games to play roles - not to "win" against a computer at a game of stacking bonuses, especially because - in a ruleset hodgepodged together by incompetent people - that's not very difficult to do.

No, they don't. Some people do.

Both the cRPG and PnP communities have been divided for a long as RPG have existed between "role players" and "power players". There has always been a kind of "culture war" between these two types of player, one side accusing the other of "cheesing" and violating the the core principles of what a role playing game is all about ("Like it's in the name, moron. Duh!") and the other dismissing the "wet role players" as amateurs ("come back when you've learned to play properly, wanker").

Owlcat clearly do not take sides in this war. They have gone out of their way design WotR (and Kingmaker) to support both styles of play equally. They are not partisan about this. They clearly consider both styles of play to be equally valid and probably anticipate many folks will gravitate from a role playing approach to their first play through to a more power play approach at higher difficulties in subsequent play throughs. After all once you know the story, you know the opposition, you know where all the good stuff is and how to get it etc, upping the anti is an important part of keeping subsequent play throughs as fresh and exiting as possible.

Your argument here is highly partisan in favour of role playing vs power playing. You are basically trying to fight some sort of culture war over the issue. For that reason I do not support what you say even though I would describe myself as primarily a role player. I do not see anything wrong with power playing, everyone should feel totally OK with playing their game the way they want to as far as I'm concerned.

Furthermore your argument exposes yet another example of your lack of understanding of the significant differences between the PnP and cRPG versions of the game. A lot of folks typically replay classic cRPGs many times over. They need headroom in the game to keep these replays fun and challenging. Folks do not replay PnP modules/APs anything like so much, largely 'cos it takes much longer to complete a PnP campaign in elapsed time than it does to complete a cRPG.

[Boner Storm]

@Aria Part of the problem with you PF peanut gallery casuals is that you don't know that very few bonuses are supposed to stack (they fixed a lot of this since Kingmaker to be fair) and practically none of the WOTR endgame gear is PF legal.

For instance, I can't think of any PF gear off the top of my head that increases the DC of your spells or gives a bonus to ranged touch attacks - but in my PF game Ember/Nenio/Daeran have like three of those items each. It's simply clown town.

Or a 6/day greater rod of maximization that turns all your damage into unholy? Another greater rod of Maximize and Empower at the same time? LOL NOPE.

Like I explained to @Raikon, there was an exploit in his build that even he wasn't aware of because Student of War's Int to AC is explicitly not supposed to stack with Monk AC.

[Boner Storm]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Gregorovitch:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Boner Storm:

Normal people play roleplaying games to play roles - not to "win" against a computer at a game of stacking bonuses, especially because - in a ruleset hodgepodged together by incompetent people - that's not very difficult to do.

No, they don't. Some people do.

Both the cRPG and PnP communities have been divided for a long as RPG have existed between "role players" and "power players". There has always been a kind of "culture war" between these two types of player, one side accusing the other of "cheesing" and violating the the core principles of what a role playing game is all about ("Like it's in the name, moron. Duh!") and the other dismissing the "wet role players" as amateurs ("come back when you've learned to play properly, wanker").

Owlcat clearly do not take sides in this war. They have gone out of their way design WotR (and Kingmaker) to support both styles of play equally. They are not partisan about this. They clearly consider both styles of play to be equally valid and probably anticipate many folks will gravitate from a role playing approach to their first play through to a more power play approach at higher difficulties in subsequent play throughs. After all once you know the story, you know the opposition, you know where all the good stuff is and how to get it etc, upping the anti is an important part of keeping subsequent play throughs as fresh and exiting as possible.

Your argument here is highly partisan in favour of role playing vs power playing. You are basically trying to fight some sort of culture war over the issue. For that reason I do not support what you say even though I would describe myself as primarily a role player. I do not see anything wrong with power playing, everyone should feel totally OK with playing their game the way they want to as far as I'm concerned.

Furthermore your argument exposes yet another example of your lack of understanding of the significant differences between the PnP and cRPG versions of the game. A lot of folks typically replay classic cRPGs many times over. They need headroom in the game to keep these replays fun and challenging. Folks do not replay PnP modules/APs anything like so much, largely 'cos it takes much longer to complete a PnP campaign in elapsed time than it does to complete a cRPG.

"both sides of play equally"

Bruh I've written pages here about how they've broken the combat system. My negative review of the game that I wrote like a week ago has about two dozen awards and over 100 upvotes already, which alone is testament that a LOT of gamers are dissatisfied with Owlcat.

The ONLY party that Owlcat caters to is the power player demographic because they cheesed the stats of half the enemies beyond their breaking points.

The fact that they have difficulty sliders to turn it down to baby's-first-RPG is irrelevant, because there is no difficulty setting that allows you to play actual Pathfinder with mobs that are remotely balanced per core rules.

EDIT: Bro there isn't even a difficulty option to allow Take 10's, which are bread and butter Pathfinder. That's an intentional design choice to arbitrarily boost the difficulty by making screwups more common.

[Raikon]

As an exploit it just doesnt make sense. Why would I want to waste 2 levels to have maximum dex bonus capped by armor. Even regular dex would cap the armor. I have 10 dex bonus, and that wouldnt surpass armor.

No obviously the only way ONLY way to get a bonus from student of war, is to wear no armor and have high intel. Otherwise theres no point at all, as regular dex would cap out in armor. Also something you are unaware of, but the sword saints uncanny dodge is supposed to work in light armor, but it is bugged and if you are wearing light armor, it removes uncanny dodge.

[Raikon]

The description for armor is to help you understand dex bonus cap. Besides there is armor in this game that monks can wear, Himeko? The whole issue is that sword saint is bugged and cant wear it or they lose thier uncanny dodge. Your arguement here is pointless, there is no exploit. Even if you wanted to call it an exploit I dont really care at this point. Charisma users get the same thing without the hassle. No prequsites, and it only takes 1 level.

[Boner Storm]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Raikon:

As an exploit it just doesnt make sense. Why would I want to waste 2 levels to have maximum dex bonus capped by armor. Even regular dex would cap the armor. I have 10 dex bonus, and that wouldnt surpass armor.

No obviously the only way ONLY way to get a bonus from student of war, is to wear no armor and have high intel. Otherwise theres no point at all, as regular dex would cap out in armor. Also something you are unaware of, but the sword saints uncanny dodge is supposed to work in light armor, but it is bugged and if you are wearing light armor, it removes uncanny dodge.

Read it and weep. Mind Over Metal is explicitly not supposed to stack with Monk AC. It's a bug and an exploit.
https://pathfinderwrathoftherighteous.wiki.fextralife.com/Mind+Over+Metal

This is the kind of stuff you miss when your perspective is so skewed by power gaming that you don't know what these classes are supposed to DO.

Student of War is a PrC for people who want to roleplay fighters who aren't mouth-breathing morons. It allows you to dump DEX and put what you would have used for it into INT.

That's it. SOW isn't even a good PrC. It exists to justify unoptimized RP choices. It arguably has less powerful abilities than, say, dipping into Slayer or Inquisitor.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/student-of-war/