Druid Wildshape + Enlarge Person

[Amoc]

I played the game awhile ago when it first came out with a Primal Druid and was annoyed because the buffed Enlarge person didn't work at later levels like it was supposed to for the archetype.

I came back to try the game again now and apparently THAT part of it was patched, but now I'm finding that Enlarge Person doesn't seem to stack with Wild Shape anymore. Sometimes I can get it to, but usually I can't. Was this also patched to match PnP? Primal Druid is kind of trash if it can't stack.

[Veganleader1]

Ok so I am using Lann as my primary tank with 12 levels into Primal Druid, 1 Witch, and the original 1 point into Zen Archer. He is just high enough to have unlocked all the polymorphs. He has taken Mythic Shapeshifter and I am not sure if this is doing something beyond what is written, but my testing is as follows:

Being buffed with his own enlarge person counts as a Size bonus.

When he uses wildshift and goes into a form the Size bonuses from the specific wildshiift form chosen is applied but counted as a polymorph bonus and the size bonus from enlarge person is shut off, which makes sense because he is no longer in the shape of a 'person'. I suspect that maybe the main idea behind Primal Druid was to have an enlarged humanoid druid next to their pet with the ability to still wildshift when desired.

Because of having Mythic Shapeshifter these 'polymorph' bonuses from the wildshape being active increase all the physical stats by +4 each.

Being polymorphed by an outside spellcast, in my case Nenio casting Polymorph (Greater Smilodon) allows Lann to get the full polymorph size bonus from the chosen form AND the +4 bonuses from Mythic shapeshifter AND ALSO get his current size bonuses from his enlarge person casting. At this level that amounts to +4 to Str and +4 Con.

At Level 16 you can bet I will be using his enlarge person for its +6 bonuses to Str and Con and using Nenio's Polymorph Greater spell instead of his own polymorph for maximum benefit. It's nice because it even opens up Greater Smilodon which gives 4 claw attacks and a bite vs the regular Smilodon with only 2 claws and a bite. Shambling mound is great and that is included. Also you can pick a Wyvern which has 6 attacks and a poison attack, or a dragon with 5 attacks and a breath weapon.

Legendary Proportions seems to stack with the Polymorph bonuses of wildshift or a polymorph spell both in ability scores and in natural armor, as well as your weapon attacks doing more damage from larger size. It looks like Enlarge Person only stacks with outside polymorphs but not with wildshifts but should increase the Str, Con, and increased damage from larger size. At level 16 in Primal Druid it's like a poor-man's Legendary Proportions (getting +2 more Con, minus the DR10/Adamantine and the +6 Natural Armor) but is disappointing that it doesn't apply while wildshifted.

So if you plan on being polymorphed statwise you are best off using Legendary Proportions when possible regardless because it applies in all these cases and only loses +2 Con at worst, but the Enlarge Person can still work nice when non-wildshift-polymorphed. Alternately stay in humanoid form and use your enhanced Enlarge Person whenever.

I think you could use Enlarge Person/Legendary Proportions on self and Legendary Proportions on pet and still mount up while enlarged depending on pet choice. You would potentially have to dip another pet class before primal druid if the primal choices aren't large enough. This could arguably be done on about any pet class, but you get free enlarge person scaling up to +2 size categories.

I really specced Lann to be a tank first and foremost, though I suspect you could make this a nice damage dealer with a more focused approach following these rules. Right now with the Greater Polymorph spell combined with crusader's edge and Claws of a Sacred Beast gloves, and Greater Heroism, he is doing some damage and his pet has always been decently strong damage and secondary tank.

Overall I think you can do something with Primal Druid, though I'm really seeing it as only mildly different than other archetypes. Hope this info helps.

[Amoc]

I answered my own question but thanks.

TLDR = Primal Druid is complete trash

Enlarge Person is suppressed by polymorph effects. It used to work before 1.4 but they patched it so it no longer worked with wildshape. I would assume that Nenio's Greater Polymorph would similarly suppress Enlarge Person and other size bonuses like Legendary Proportions.

Since the archetype's main hook is the Enlarge Person buff, and since it doesn't have any of the really cool fauna from PnP, I don't see why you'd want to choose Primal Druid anymore. The only thing I could see being remotely useful would be if you wanted some scythe wielding backliner with reach or something, but Druid's BAB isn't great so I just don't think it's worth doing. I'd rather use pretty much any other archetype for Druid (except maybe Defender of the True World because no Fey).

[Vampirate]

Originally posted by Amoc:

I answered my own question but thanks.

TLDR = Primal Druid is complete trash

Enlarge Person is suppressed by polymorph effects. It used to work before 1.4 but they patched it so it no longer worked with wildshape. I would assume that Nenio's Greater Polymorph would similarly suppress Enlarge Person and other size bonuses like Legendary Proportions.

Since the archetype's main hook is the Enlarge Person buff, and since it doesn't have any of the really cool fauna from PnP, I don't see why you'd want to choose Primal Druid anymore. The only thing I could see being remotely useful would be if you wanted some scythe wielding backliner with reach or something, but Druid's BAB isn't great so I just don't think it's worth doing. I'd rather use pretty much any other archetype for Druid (except maybe Defender of the True World because no Fey).

1. Enlarge person not that bloody important.
2. Primal druid is fine, especially dex based
3. Use enlarge animal.

[Amoc]

Originally posted by Vampirate:

1. Enlarge person not that bloody important.

It's one of the main reasons to choose the archetype.

Originally posted by Vampirate:

2. Primal druid is fine, especially dex based

Other archetypes can do everything the Primal Druid does and better, so no it's not really fine.

Originally posted by Vampirate:

3. Use enlarge animal.

Like any other druid archetype.

[Veganleader1]

When I tried using Enlarge Animal on wildshape it did NOT work.

[Vampirate]

Originally posted by Veganleader1:

When I tried using Enlarge Animal on wildshape it did NOT work.

Did that get patched out?

[Vampirate]

Originally posted by Amoc:

Originally posted by Vampirate:

1. Enlarge person not that bloody important.

It's one of the main reasons to choose the archetype.

Originally posted by Vampirate:

2. Primal druid is fine, especially dex based

Other archetypes can do everything the Primal Druid does and better, so no it's not really fine.

Originally posted by Vampirate:

3. Use enlarge animal.

Like any other druid archetype.

They should definitely fix it, but one thing Primal Druid DOES have, if I remember correctly, is really high saves in fortitude and will.

[Veganleader1]

Originally posted by Vampirate:

Originally posted by Veganleader1:

When I tried using Enlarge Animal on wildshape it did NOT work.

Did that get patched out?

I just hopped onto my bugged out save in Midnight Isles (preventing completing island 9) and Animal Growth does not work for either wildshape form (smilodon) or Polymorph Greater (Wyvern). Both are beasts and not even questionable like an elemental or shambling mound would be. There is a big red X when you hover the cast targeting over Lann when in these forms.

[Amoc]

Originally posted by Vampirate:

Originally posted by Veganleader1:

When I tried using Enlarge Animal on wildshape it did NOT work.

Did that get patched out?

Was patched out in 1.4

Originally posted by Vampirate:

They should definitely fix it, but one thing Primal Druid DOES have, if I remember correctly, is really high saves in fortitude and will.

The will saves are from having good wisdom. I don't remember what the base fort save is for druid but with mythic feats and just regular buffs their CON can get high.

As far as fixing Primal Druid, I think it's just a crappy archetype now. Unless it had some of the really interesting animal companion options from PnP, there's really no reason to choose it. Even when the Enlarge Person buff DID work on wildshape, it wasn't anything special. Now it's hugely sub-par and not worth taking. A base druid is better.