Destined Playthrough: Crusading Angel

[Gorilla]

About to wrap up Chapter 2 in my first playthrough and got enough acquainted with the story and context to have figured out what I want to play as my primary Main Character. The setting and story is just screaming for a demon-slaying zealot who develops a soft spot for some demon girl on a road to redemption (if it's cliché, I don't care ). I have no clue what the demon girl's story or the overarching story has in store, but I think the possibilities could have an immersive impact on the overall experience, whether it's with a happy or sad ending (but I'm not digging for spoilers, so please be discrete :p).

I have, however, been digging through information on classes for a while now, and I came to the not definitive-yet-compelling choice of the pure Cleric, Crusader archetype going into Angel Mythic path for an additional angel-demon dynamic.
Even though I have some experience with Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights back in the day, Cleric is not a class I've ever tried, and I've really had to concentrate on refreshing and learning anew the complexities of a DnD-like ruleset, so I'm hoping to find good counsel from anyone willing to give it in order to prevent me from building a concept that turns out completely useless in the later and more challenging stages of the game. Min-maxing is not the goal rather than making the envisioned concept work effectively.

Some additional information for the style of character I had in mind:

I haven't started the campaign yet, but my character creation screen is open as we speak on the following ability scores:

LG Human

STR 18
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 16
CHA 10

As you can see it's a STR-based character, one of the reasons being that I feel the party of companions seems to already provide plenty in the ranged / magic / healing department. Therefore my cleric won't focus too much on channeling (hence the low charisma score) or offensive magic (hence the preference for STR over WIS, although I will boost WIS to 20 eventually with equipment most likely); instead being a more capable melee than Sosiel's automated build. Another reason is that it better fits his character rp-wise, as a demon slayer.

I have considered War Priest since it serves that melee-focused cleric concept and because it would be a unique class among the companions available in the game (for Angel path), but, unless I'm missing something, I'm not really drawn to the prospect of sacrificing 7th+ level divine spells for the Warpriest's Sacred equipment feats, whose enhancement bonuses seem to be underwhelming when you could get them from equipment (except maybe Sacred Weapon for low damage weapons). I'm also too curious about the effect of merging cleric and angel spell books. In terms of extra feats, the Crusader seems to sufficiently close that gap with the Warpriest. But weapon-wise, it'll be longsword (which I can pick up with Iomedae's deity choice or Leader background) or Greatsword (which I can pick up with Leader background), so I won't be going scimitar, no matter what (I only like them on Dervish Dancers, drow, barbarians or exotic nomad-type of warriors). Reach with a glaive is tempting, but I'll need some more convincing first.

I don't want an Animal companion (I'll have that with my hunter playthrough, some time). Not going to choose Erastil either, so Community, although interesting, won't be an option. Given Iomedae as the choice of deity and my MC's personality, both Glory, Good and War seem appropriate choices. I would favour Glory over War if it weren't for the former's DC bonus vs undead, which I think won't be an important aspect of my MC (as he is demon-focused). Not really tempted by War's Battle Rage bonus either since it requires a standard action for a relatively short effect. Good seems to contain mostly underwhelming spells that are already on the Cleric spell list. Then again, War seems to have the same problem until level 7 and the Power Word spells.

This is probably the area where my doubts are biggest. One of those additional doubts being Holy Sword of the Glory domain. It seems really good to bypass all the enemies' DR in the game, but wouldn't it become redundant once you get the Sword of Holy Damage feat from the Angel path?

I went on for much longer than expected. Apologies for that. Any tips however by those who've sacrificed their precious time instead of tl;dr, are very welcome!

[.O.]

You really need more WIS and less STR. STR enhancing stuff are plentiful and easy to get, especially if you're a cleric going down the Angel path.

Cleric is better because of the spellbook merge, I believe Warpriest not being a full caster cannot merge.

Glaive is better imo because I prefer my cleric to not be immediately at the frontline, but longsword works fine as well. In terms of powergaming I think glaive is stronger, but longsword won't gimp you or anything.

I would personally go for Glory domain. Good imo is more useful for caster type clerics

[Gorilla]

Originally posted by .O.:

You really need more WIS and less STR. STR enhancing stuff are plentiful and easy to get, especially if you're a cleric going down the Angel path.

That's totally an option. Though I should understand why my character's Wisdom oughta transcend a 20 total score when I won't be focusing on offensive magic spells.

Originally posted by .O.:

Cleric is better because of the spellbook merge, I believe Warpriest not being a full caster cannot merge.

Correct, one of the if not the main reasons why I'm leaning towards Cleric.

Originally posted by .O.:

Glaive is better imo because I prefer my cleric to not be immediately at the frontline, but longsword works fine as well. In terms of powergaming I think glaive is stronger, but longsword won't gimp you or anything.

That's a consideration I need to make. Could use a longsword with a board to increase AC, since I won't have access to heavy armour unless I spend a feat, and switch to 2-handed with longsword whenever it's appropriate. Reasons not to go longsword would be: Seelah already has this weapon style; my MC could fill the role of the flanking 2h damage dealer (with greatsword, hence the 18 STR) while Seelah takes on the brunt of melee. With Longsword I would probably decrease STR to 16 or even 14, as he would no longer fill that role.

Originally posted by .O.:

I would personally go for Glory domain. Good imo is more useful for caster type clerics

Do you know anything of the synergy between Glory's Holy Sword and Angel's Sword of Holy Damage?

[.O.]

You want more WIS because you want more spell slots to cast the powerful buffing spells you will get as cleric angel merged spellbook. Especially the high level ones.

If you're going for a melee cleric, then you will likely go for melee mythic abilities/feats, which means you won't have things like greater enduring spells or abundant spells so you will want more spell slots to use for buffing spells.

From memory, the glory spell and the angel ability doesn't overlap and it does stack. Because one of them converts the damage you do to holy, while the other one gives your weapon a +5 enhancement as well as a holy enhancement (extra 2d6 against evil)

[[-TWR-]tajl]

Holy sword spell doesn't really have synergy with anything. Problem is that it is round/level spell and while you can have it last 24h later, then you already have better weapons available.

2d6 holy damage is tiny and doesn't matter at all. Maybe could be useful with story difficulty or something, but core or harder it is just not enough. Spells that give energy damage combined with elemental barrage just scale better.

I think overall problem with that build is that it is weak. Medium armor, shield and bad dexterity means that you don't have AC for the front line and damage will be sub par too. At least weapon damage. Spell damage on the other hand will be great as angel/cleric combined spellbook is great. Even relatively low wisdom wound't ruin that as with best spells enemy only get save against stun and damage happens anyway.

Even if you would use elemental barrage for damage you would still have bad AC and not that great to hit bonus. You would be lot stronger as Angel caster.

So at least if you will play core or harder difficulty you would probably end up using those damage spells anyway. You would have to. At least if you wouldn't make strong mercs to carry.

[jsaving]

As a cleric, you would to build for either high melee DPS or high spell DC. Then in addition to that, you can easily cover buffs/heals since you don't need particular stats/feats for them.

If going for high spell DC, then you max wisdom and take a plethora of focus/pen feats. If going for high melee DPS, then you max strength and would typically go crusader.

However, key domain powers like community would ordinarily be the reason you'd opt for a cleric over an oracle. If that isn't what's pushing you toward cleric, you might consider a melee oracle[www.neoseeker.com] instead. Best wishes and good luck as you make your way through the game!

[Gorilla]

Thanks, jsaving.

That's all pretty straightforward.

TWR - "weak". Yes, that's what I'm trying to avoid and I definitely see your points. Been playing on Core settings so far on my 1st playthrough with little difficulty. Been using an Eldritch Scion who got his AC pretty high quickly, which is all the difference with this Crusader build.

Let's imagine I'd go STR / Greatsword + Heavy Armour proficiency (for Mithral Full Plate), going down the Power Attack / Cleave line, which is something I rarely do with melee builds, ironically. I also understand that reach is preferable, but I would favour the sword for flavour on this one. Eventually +4 on DEX (for the 3 max dex on armour) & WIS (up to 20) with equipment oughta be possible considering how many of those items were available in Kingmaker. What options are there to boost or compensate his low AC without dipping into Monk?

.O. - I could take Abundant Casting to compensate for the fewer spell slots. I'm not sure if I really need to spend all Mythic feats on either melee or spell casting. Is it really an either-or thing?

jsaving - I could get Community with Impossible Domain (I think?), cause it does look like a pretty good choice overall.

The most popular concept my imagination is entertaining is the heavy weapon wielding enlarged angel making his allies around him stronger while shaking enemies with Frightful Aspect. While melee-wise or in DPS terms not as powerful as high BAB classes, combined with a full cleric caster level + Angel spell book, I cannot see this build utterly fail, unless I'm seriously underestimating the difficulty levels of Chapter 3+ encounters.

[[-TWR-]tajl]

I played my first playtrough as monk1,druid19 angel and my plan was to have very high AC and use wildshape and later dragonforms. It worked quite well and middle game I could solo some encounters, but late game I just was not good enough in melee. So I ended up using those angel's damage spells.

I think it is same for your build. It will never be good enough in melee so it could work in late game, but those angel spells will save the day. So build will work, but maybe not the way you would like it to work.

[.O.]

I mean if you want to play Core or above, you do generally need to minmax, but what the OP wanted is perfectly usable on Normal or below.

Here's something I created from Inevitable Excess DLC, unfortunately I have the game on GOG not steam, so I can't do a steam screenshot:

https://imgur.com/a/EynLFpy

Note that this is not an optimised build, just general idea, I'm sure lots of things about it can be improved but it's midnight where I am so a bit sleepy. The screenshot is from a buffed up angel, but I didn't optimise the buffs I basically just casted all the available buffs one by one and I didn't optimise the equipment either, just picked all the ones that seems to kinda work. Also, didn't use any arcane buffs from companions, this is purely just the cleric's own buffs.

an angel cleric will never be a martial master imo, but you can be a decent frontliner dps/support hybrid.

The original stat line before buffs etc is:

STR 16
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 18
CHA 8

and I put every ability point upgrade into WIS. As you can see my STR is roughly equal to WIS even though WIS started out higher and I pump all ability point increase into WIS.

I went with the Aeon early mythic levels since the angel one is all about healing and I figure you don't want to heal.

[Gorilla]

Originally posted by -TWR-tajl:

I played my first playtrough as monk1,druid19 angel and my plan was to have very high AC and use wildshape and later dragonforms. It worked quite well and middle game I could solo some encounters, but late game I just was not good enough in melee. So I ended up using those angel's damage spells.

I think it is same for your build. It will never be good enough in melee so it could work in late game, but those angel spells will save the day. So build will work, but maybe not the way you would like it to work.

I assume your Druid fell short on the AB end? But even then you could fall back on your Druid spells, no?

That the mythic Angel spells would be crucial to defeat mythic demons, that seems reasonable. I'm definitely not expecting this build to be capable of taking on everything without making use of Angel spells and feats.

.O. - Thanks for that info. I'll study it a bit more thoroughly later tonight. I heard most Angel spells negate saving throws, so does it still require such a high WIS?

At first glance though, I see you added Wings as Mythic lvl 8 feat. Does Angel not get Wings automatically at Lvl 9? If so, what's the difference between them?

[.O.]

Originally posted by Gorilla:

.O. - I could take Abundant Casting to compensate for the fewer spell slots. I'm not sure if I really need to spend all Mythic feats on either melee or spell casting. Is it really an either-or thing?

what you really wants is the higher level spell slots, and if you want to use one mythic ability as a spell ability, it's probably better to get enduring spells instead of abundant casting, because abundant casting just gives you more level 1-3 spells, you would need to spend 3 mythic abilities to get extra slots for 1-9

I don't remember picking wings, I think that came by default. The placement of things on the mythic path screen can be a bit weird. Not sure if that has anything to do with my increased font size setting.

A lot of angel spells I think bypasses spell resistance, but not saving throws, I know the WotR level 9 spell definitely has a saving throw component

[Gorilla]

Originally posted by .O.:

what you really wants is the higher level spell slots, and if you want to use one mythic ability as a spell ability, it's probably better to get enduring spells instead of abundant casting, because abundant casting just gives you more level 1-3 spells, you would need to spend 3 mythic abilities to get extra slots for 1-9

Ah, good point. I didn't take that into account. Much food for thought!

[[-TWR-]tajl]

Originally posted by Gorilla:

assume your Druid fell short on the AB end? But even then you could fall back on your Druid spells, no?

Druids have combined spellbook too and Angel spells are just better than anything on Druids list. So in the end I think practically all high level spells prepared were Angel spells and Angel spells with metamagic.

Nothing in Druid list comes even close to something like empowered Storm of Justice. 2 best damage spells in the game are Bolt Of Justice and Storm Of Justice. Lots of holy damage and save is only for prone carry effect. Damage happens anyway and with metamagic+metamagic rods and high caster level from combined spellbook it is lot of damage.

And I mean so much damage that nothing comes even close. Like 500+ holy damage for every enemy and then 300+ with another casting with greater rod of quickening.

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

I am delighted to tell you that Cleric Crusader is an absolutely overwhelmingly awesome class for this adventure path if you're going Angel. The early game will be a little challenging, but that's what Lann is for! Once you achieve Angel status, you become a ranged melee frontline tank dps support. It's a total power trip after the first two acts.

Domain skills are good, but honestly they're mega crap at the start of the game since they only last for 1 round and take a round to cast. I wouldn't sweat it too much. This is why I love to go for Improved Cleaving Finish ASAP, because getting through Kenabras and then the ghouls in act 2 requires melee AoE that otherwise doesn't exist yet. Artifice domain gives Frightful Aspect, which is pretty awesome at least.

Another option is to go Sarenae, Sun domain. The level 7 domain ability is awesome, you can wield scimitars two-handed and don't need special proficiency since it's your god's weapon (which is sorta like a greatsword but with FATTER CRITS). You also get to shoot holy fire laserbeams from your palms, and Sarenae's focus on peace and redemption makes her a much more angelic figure if you want to play as an angel with a soft spot.

[Gorilla]

Greetings, Super Cosmic Ray of Positivity

I went through with the Crusader build, although I admit I've started off as a monk (3 Monk / 3 Crusader so far). Still a Cleave bot but with decent AC now (wearing no armour + buffs). Frankly, Act 1 on Core has been a breeze so far. Will probably end up 5M / 15C in the end, at the cost of lvl 10 spells. If it turns out an utter failure, well ..., there's still Hilor.

Haven't decided on a weapon yet (will have to at Crusader 5), but I'm still in doubt. Apparently a greatsword has the same melee reach as a dagger. Completely ludicrous, though I bet the devs have their mechanical or balancing reasons. If they'd increase greatsword to, I don't know, maybe 4 feet, a sweet spot between dagger and reach weapon, that would settle it, but now I might have to go reach after all.

How about that ... Same melee reach for greatsword and dagger. I'm gobsmacked.

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

Range on melee weapons isn't really a thing, they're either Reach or Melee. So.. Yep! Bare fists have the same range as a greatsword. If you want a range weapon you need anything with the Reach keyword; Longspear, Spear, Bardiche, Fauchard, or Glaive. There might be a couple I've forgotten about.

You can also gain increased melee range by using Enlarge Person! Nenio and Ember both have access to it, it's an amazing spell for the early parts of the game.

The game has quite a lot of powerful and cool glaives in it, so if you decide to use them you're going to have many many choices available to you. At the end of Act 2 the final boss drops a glaive called Soulshear which you have a Crusade edict to enchant in some cool way. You can then further enchant it in later acts to keep the Enhancement bonus up to speed. Sosiel might be upset that you're out-glaiving him, but he seems like more of a punchy Cleric anyways!