Hexes, Chanting, and a discussion of Camelia/Ember

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

Hello reader,

I've been struggling to find cool uses for Camelia and Ember lately. Ember doesn't really come online as a blastercaster until level 15 or so once Scorching Ray becomes powerful - or once metamagic rods become available. Camelia is basically fine if you make her a Freebooter or something with Fencing Grace, she becomes a reasonable teamwork feat bot with decent AC. Neither character is particularly overwhelming or supportive, so I've been having difficulty fitting them onto parties for any reason other than "I wanna use them."

However, just a few minutes of reading will reveal just what makes these characters so powerful: Hexes. Most hexes are nice little one-round debuffs, cute and handy little things but unless you're playing on Hard/Unfair enemies are not going to have enough AC to the point those debuffs are better than just taking more damage. However, the Chant ability allows the caster to spend a Movement action (3s cast) to extend all active hexes by a full round (6s). This means you can apply a helpful hex to an ally, like Protective Luck, then spam Chant infinitely to build up that one-round protective buff into literal hours of protection. The only thing holding you back is your own patience. It'll take a while to do, but Ember can at ZERO COST make every enemy in the game have to roll with disadvantage against everyone in your party with every attack or spell.

This Chant ability radically changes the efficacy of these characters, but I'm curious to hear peoples' opinions on it. For people who have used this strategy, have you enjoyed it? Does spamming the chant button for 15 minutes to extend your hexes for long enough to last a whole dungeon seem like Chant's intended design? Is it fun? I recognise that Unfair difficulty is explicitly about "the game is going to be a complete ♥♥♥♥ to you, so you should use every tool in your arsenal to ♥♥♥♥ it back - otherwise you won't be able to beat it" but somehow I still feel cheap using Chant in this way.

If Chant is not going to be used in this way, how do people like to build their Camelia/Embers? The best I've come up with for Ember is light hex support and necromancy spells, and for Camelia I use her as a durable frontline teamwork feat machine with bonus crit (for proccing Seize/Outflank) and Freebooter levels for the party-wide Bond bonus and marked target for bosses.

[Helios]

Originally posted by Super Cosmic Space Magnet:

Hello reader,

I've been struggling to find cool uses for Camelia and Ember lately. Ember doesn't really come online as a blastercaster until level 15 or so once Scorching Ray becomes powerful - or once metamagic rods become available. Camelia is basically fine if you make her a Freebooter or something with Fencing Grace, she becomes a reasonable teamwork feat bot with decent AC. Neither character is particularly overwhelming or supportive, so I've been having difficulty fitting them onto parties for any reason other than "I wanna use them."

However, just a few minutes of reading will reveal just what makes these characters so powerful: Hexes. Most hexes are nice little one-round debuffs, cute and handy little things but unless you're playing on Hard/Unfair enemies are not going to have enough AC to the point those debuffs are better than just taking more damage. However, the Chant ability allows the caster to spend a Movement action (3s cast) to extend all active hexes by a full round (6s). This means you can apply a helpful hex to an ally, like Protective Luck, then spam Chant infinitely to build up that one-round protective buff into literal hours of protection. The only thing holding you back is your own patience. It'll take a while to do, but Ember can at ZERO COST make every enemy in the game have to roll with disadvantage against everyone in your party with every attack or spell.

This Chant ability radically changes the efficacy of these characters, but I'm curious to hear peoples' opinions on it. For people who have used this strategy, have you enjoyed it? Does spamming the chant button for 15 minutes to extend your hexes for long enough to last a whole dungeon seem like Chant's intended design? Is it fun? I recognise that Unfair difficulty is explicitly about "the game is going to be a complete ♥♥♥♥ to you, so you should use every tool in your arsenal to ♥♥♥♥ it back - otherwise you won't be able to beat it" but somehow I still feel cheap using Chant in this way.

If Chant is not going to be used in this way, how do people like to build their Camelia/Embers? The best I've come up with for Ember is light hex support and necromancy spells, and for Camelia I use her as a durable frontline teamwork feat machine with bonus crit (for proccing Seize/Outflank) and Freebooter levels for the party-wide Bond bonus and marked target for bosses.

I could make a rogue out of camilla because of my settings and had her use a short bow for a long time in my party irony is after you are in drezen and part of her personal quest is finished you get an amulet from her dad that increases the dc of hexes by one but since camillas amulet is locked you can give it to ember.Found no use for ember so far but only because i did not look into hexes at all so far.

[Chadwick Strongpants]

Originally posted by Helios:

I could make a rogue out of camilla

It's Camellia

[Vampirate]

I use Ember as a healer when I use her. Give her buff and heal spells and she gets fire spells automatically, HOWEVER... the jeweler and the priest have some items designed for fire users (and the tailor) that will give you spells for free if you equip them. There's also some equipment for lightning in the Numerian dungeon if that's your jam.

Hexes do rule tho. Ember's slumber Hex can let you really control the pace of some fights. If your tank is super tough to kill, consider making Ember your healer. She's a solid choice with her spell options and ability to cast spontaneously, particularly when you get spell granting equipment.

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

I struggle to see the value in any of the Cure spells tbh. Heal is fantastic, but you're not getting that until sixth level - until then, Cure spells just seem to be horrendously inferior to Channel Positive Energy.

[juzam_djinn_fr]

For fights i suspect to be difficult, i protective luck tank 1, chant, protective luck tank 2, chant and engage, no need to spam chant after that because you will use it each round (because you can still cast spell or another hex, etc as chant is a move action).

For big bosses : i also fortune player 1, chant, fortune player 2, chant, etc to give fortune to everyone in addition to protective luck to the 2 tanks, and it's fine.

it litterally takes u 12s in case 1 and around 45s in case 2 (only for big fights) and i don't bother for most of the trashs mobs, i just use hexes and chant during the fight.

You don't need to spam things for 15 min.

As for a use of Camelia and Ember, i've published this day an unfair guide https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2747711418 who contain builds for both of them, you can check them, it might gives you ideas.

[Zloth]

!!! I tried following the link to that guide and Steam said it was a malicious link!? But it's going right back to Steam!

[juzam_djinn_fr]

Originally posted by Zloth:

!!! I tried following the link to that guide and Steam said it was a malicious link!? But it's going right back to Steam!

i've got the same thing when i click on it, i don't know why, you can clic on "guides" tab on the top of the board and sort by date, it's the most recent guide

[Mystic]

I've built Ember as a mystic theurge between witch and oracle and she's an absolute beast. Starts off slow but once she gets going she is throwing out huge amounts of damage with fire spells and is a great buffer and healer/restorer too. She's one of my favourite characters and I always bring her everywhere. With metamagic feats you can end up casting the same spell pretty much as often as you want given you can get spells to occupy multiple level slots due to the metamagic and also the theurge ability to cast witch spells in oracle slots and vice versa. I haven't really used her hexes given the alternative build I've gone for, but the hex that can lower armour class is very useful for those demons with very high AC's.

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

That's a very interesting concept! I've never used Mystic Theurge :o I don't really know how it functions.

[Daleorn]

Its worth mentioning that Shaman and Witch hexes will stack, so you can put 2 protective lucks on your tank so the enemies make 3 rolls instead of 2, you can put 2 lucks on your damage dealers so they take the best of 3 rolls.

If the Shaman fails a slumber the witch can try again. Double evil eyes, you get the idea.

[Mikrowelle]

Also just for those people who don't mind modding their game: There is a setting in Toybox that makes Cackle and Chant increase the duration of Fortune and Protective Luck by 10 minutes if used outside of combat.

Also remember that Shaman and Witch Hexes stack so with Fortune and Protective Luck from cam and ember your characters get 2 rerolls both offensively and defensively.

[x_equals_speed]

If you're willing to do a few minutes of cackle/chant to make fortune last through a whole dungeon it's probably one of the more powerful things in the game. Rolling twice and picking the best on every roll is a huge advantage, normally you'd need a trickster mythic spell to get that sort of effect and it wouldn't provide it to the whole party indefinitely.

I'm inclined to view substantial out of combat chant/cackle as an exploit. It's clearly extremely powerful and you'd never get away with it in a tabletop game. It's only possible here because the RTWP conversion erroneously lets you do it more than once a round and stack up duration above the time you've been doing it. I'd expect a human GM to apply fatigue or note it's interrupted if you speak for more than six seconds in a dialogue or just plain invoke rule zero and say "Don't take the piss".

I don't mind other players using exploits, no skin off my back, but I personally enjoy the game more when I avoid them.

In that context - I still found real value in chant/cackle. It's not the superpower it is if you're using it for infinite fortune, but it's a useful move action. Some effects don't offer a save or offer a save to reduce them to one round, so being able to add one of those effects each turn (and keep all of the existing ones going for a move action) will seriously nerf a dangerous enemy over a longer fight. Misfortune is once per enemy so you can throw that onto the most dangerous attacking thing at the start of every fight, if they don't make their save their impact is tremendously reduced and you can keep it on all day. I suspect there's also some interesting things to be done with the various spirits. The fire vulnerability hex in particular feels like it'd add up to a lot of damage if the rest of the party were built to exploit it.

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

Originally posted by x_equals_speed:

I don't mind other players using exploits, no skin off my back, but I personally enjoy the game more when I avoid them.

This is very much in line with my own views. I don't have some kind of ethical outrage at the AUDACITY of people to use the spells in this way, just that I'd rather not use it myself. I hadn't really thought of it in the context of what would be acceptable in a tabletop game, though I imagine even a single round of late game combat would take absolutely hours to calculate xD

[Vampirate]

Originally posted by Super Cosmic Space Magnet:

I struggle to see the value in any of the Cure spells tbh. Heal is fantastic, but you're not getting that until sixth level - until then, Cure spells just seem to be horrendously inferior to Channel Positive Energy.

Separate cure spells draw from different pools, channel draws from one.

[hilburnashua]

Camillia can be made into a very powerful melee. Take 2 ranks in shaman for iceplant hex. 3 levels in rogue to get dex to damage to an elven curved blade (having to spend a feat to get the proficiency) 2 levels in instinctual barbarian to get wisdom to initiative and ac and get a rage that doesn't reduce AC, and 3 lvls or so in fighter two hander for overhead chop. Buy the vital strike feats and improved critical and don't wear armor. Just destroy all opponents walking up to them and turning them into bloody scraps. Kind of fits her personality too.

Ember .. I just don't like her class. The action economy between wanting to use hexes or spells I find frustrating. Doesn't get access to enough spells to make her a good buffer. The -4 she suffers on attacks until 10th level or so is especially painful. I did a playthrough where I made her a necromancer specialist which was kind of fun although I found a bug where you couldn't use persistent metamagic with bestow curse or greater bestow curse. Don't know if that has been fixed yet or not.