So as someone who actually played a kitsune hiding their identity in tabletop... SPOILERS

[Guilty Man]

Spoilers for a companion, look away if you want to be blind.

Probably treading on ground that's been well walked but, a kitsune's human shape would be dispelled when hitting 0 hp, it can also be dispelled with magic, or just seen through with sufficient skill, or magic detection, or a million other things. Having played a Kitsune hiding their race from the party for a game I hope there is a damned good explanation as to why Nenio doesn't revert, she even gets to keep her bite attack while disguised.

I get it's not a perfect representation of the tabletop, but it really does piss me off when certain characters seem to get exceptions to the rules, especially as the system is crunchy so the rules are important. Like in Kingmaker with a certain character's whole class being invalidated by a plot twist.

I don't need to know the exact reason, but could someone post if this gets explained in a way that doesn't come down to "Because we wanted it that way." I'm on the side of the coin that finds the character insufferable so I don't want to invest much effort into them if the twist comes down to the equivalent of GM fiat.

[Drake]

Do Nenio's quest to the end. You'll get the answer to every question you'll ask yourself about her.

[Guilty Man]

Originally posted by Drake:

Do BLANKS quest to the end. You'll get the answer to every question you'll ask yourself about her.

Trying to avoid identifying the character by name, just incase.
But my point was, I am not going to do their quest if I know that it will just frustrate me further. I am on the razor's edge of kicking them from the party for their attitude as it is. So I was hoping if someone could give a yes or no about if the rule breaking was justified, or just another example of Owlcat's writing.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by Guilty Man:

Originally posted by Drake:

Do BLANKS quest to the end. You'll get the answer to every question you'll ask yourself about her.

Trying to avoid identifying the character by name, just incase.
But my point was, I am not going to do their quest if I know that it will just frustrate me further. I am on the razor's edge of kicking them from the party for their attitude as it is. So I was hoping if someone could give a yes or no about if the rule breaking was justified, or just another example of Owlcat's writing.

Yes, there is a justification.

Play blank's quest to the end.

[jutschi78]

Sorry man, you are wrong, Shapeshifting is a supernatural ability and can't be dispelled, only antimagic field supress it. See pathfinder prd:

"These can’t be disrupted in combat and generally don’t provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren’t subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don’t function in antimagic areas."

Detect magic works only to spells and magic items, supernatural abilities are not mentioned in the spell description, so detect magic would not work. You need powerful divination like true seeing (in the game the part of seeing transformed creatures is not implemented).

So it is no surprise, that in almost every situation nobody knows, if a human is a human or a shapeshifting other creature.

If shapeshifter do revert in their original form after death, i don't know. I don't find a rule imd the PRD, but i didn't searched for long.

[Guilty Man]

Originally posted by jutschi78:

Sorry man, you are wrong, Shapeshifting is a supernatural ability and can't be dispelled, only antimagic field supress it. See pathfinder prd:

"These can’t be disrupted in combat and generally don’t provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren’t subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don’t function in antimagic areas."

Detect magic works only to spells and magic items, supernatural abilities are not mentioned in the spell description, so detect magic would not work. You need powerful divination like true seeing (in the game the part of seeing transformed creatures is not implemented).

So it is no surprise, that in almost every situation nobody knows, if a human is a human or a shapeshifting other creature.

If shapeshifter do revert in their original form after death, i don't know. I don't find a rule imd the PRD, but i didn't searched for long.

Incorrect, it is a magical racial trait that functions as Alter Self, as per the rules. Magical racial traits can be dispelled and function as their spell equivilant but with character level serving as caster level.
I know this gets discussed a lot in the rules because it is not crystal clear, but the key word here is "Magical". It is termed magical so the rules governing magic cover it. It also only gives s +10 bonus to disguise checks, so it can be seen through, (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-kitsune/).
The only wiggle room is the use of the word "Indefinately", but while that would change duration, that doesn't change the effect being a Magical one.

[Max Kojote, M.SC]

Originally posted by Guilty Man:

Originally posted by jutschi78:

Sorry man, you are wrong, Shapeshifting is a supernatural ability and can't be dispelled, only antimagic field supress it. See pathfinder prd:

"These can’t be disrupted in combat and generally don’t provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren’t subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don’t function in antimagic areas."

Detect magic works only to spells and magic items, supernatural abilities are not mentioned in the spell description, so detect magic would not work. You need powerful divination like true seeing (in the game the part of seeing transformed creatures is not implemented).

So it is no surprise, that in almost every situation nobody knows, if a human is a human or a shapeshifting other creature.

If shapeshifter do revert in their original form after death, i don't know. I don't find a rule imd the PRD, but i didn't searched for long.

Incorrect, it is a magical racial trait that functions as Alter Self, as per the rules. Magical racial traits can be dispelled and function as their spell equivilant but with character level serving as caster level.
I know this gets discussed a lot in the rules because it is not crystal clear, but the key word here is "Magical". It is termed magical so the rules governing magic cover it. It also only gives s +10 bonus to disguise checks, so it can be seen through, (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-kitsune/).

Minor point of order, but you'll note that Change Shape also has the tag of (Su) which means it's a Supernatural Ability and thus also follows the rules of Supernatural Abilities (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities/)

Also I think the bite thing is probably a bug that just never got resolved.

[Guilty Man]

Originally posted by Max Kojote, BIE:

SNIP
Minor point of order, but you'll note that Change Shape also has the tag of (Su) which means it's a Supernatural Ability and thus also follows the rules of Supernatural Abilities (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities/)

Then I stand corrected on dispelling. But the ability can still be seen through, and, as blank's trickery (standing in for the disguise skill) can be overcome, it would be seen through with time. True Sight would also see through it, and anti-magic breaks it. It is still not a perfect disguise.

[fulf]

rpgs always make concessions for plot
why can't you pulp minagho and staunton at gray garrison instead of stopping the fight in its tracks and having an anime speech with them until they can teleport away?

[Sir Snuffles]

not gonna lie, when she turned into a furry i stopped using her in my party....

[Vampirate]

Nenio's ability to forget alters the rules of reality. This can be seen when she forgets she was drunk. Also her powers come from a void entity. This could explain why only that entity can dispel her form (as it does). Nenio's whole identity is literally a manifestation from nothing, it's not a stretch to say that if she is in human form, she is "not remembering" she is a kitsune. The laws that govern Nenio's identity could fairly be said to be abnormal and reality altering and thus not governed by the standard rules of magic.

[Guilty Man]

Originally posted by fulf:

rpgs always make concessions for plot
why can't you pulp minagho and staunton at gray garrison instead of stopping the fight in its tracks and having an anime speech with them until they can teleport away?

I also find this to be deeply irksome. But that's not a matter of bending rules, that is (sorry to the devs and their efforts) just bad writing.
Cannot agree with Snuffles, the character is a love or hate character, and their personality makes them a hate for me, their race does not factor into that.

[Guilty Man]

Originally posted by Vampirate:

Snip

Agh! Gods damn, caught more of that than I wanted as it does actually explain it. I've pinned Orion's post as the answer at the top because I just wanted confirmation that there was a good reason for it before I bothered investing in the character. I'm trying to avoid too many spoilers, just I don't want a Kingmaker situation of investing in disapointment (I did not, at all, enjoy that game past the mid act. I'm only playing this because I was assured Owlcat had improved).
I figured BLANKS race pretty soon on because of the bite attack, the stat distribution and the fact I can get the tail feat for them.
But thank you for trying to help anyway.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by Guilty Man:

Originally posted by Vampirate:

Snip

Agh! Gods damn, caught more of that than I wanted as it does actually explain it. I've pinned Orion's post as the answer at the top because I just wanted confirmation that there was a good reason for it before I bothered investing in the character. I'm trying to avoid too many spoilers, just I don't want a Kingmaker situation of investing in disapointment (I did not, at all, enjoy that game past the mid act. I'm only playing this because I was assured Owlcat had improved).
I figured BLANKS race pretty soon on because of the bite attack, the stat distribution and the fact I can get the tail feat for them.
But thank you for trying to help anyway.

I recommend you ignore the thread. Just unsubscribe and don't look back.

[Super Cosmic Space Magnet]

You can't even choose to stay human. Nenio keeps transforming into a fox whether I want her to or not. :[ Just stay human, you freak.

[Vampirate]

Originally posted by Super Cosmic Space Magnet:

You can't even choose to stay human. Nenio keeps transforming into a fox whether I want her to or not. Just stay human, you freak.

She does. Any time there's an event that like "resets" your party she'll be transformed back. Happens a few times throughout the game but it's a good reminder to make sure all your character's skill are set how you like them.