Sword Saint or Duelist / Sage Sorcerer

[Gorilla]

Just finished Kingmaker and I'm still trying to wrap my head around all the mechanics and feats. Moving on from the generic Fighter, which felt a bit stale when getting used to the game, I'm looking for something more fun to play with in Wrath of the Righteous.

The idea is a High DEX / High INT (no or light armour) duelist-type of hybrid skilled in Abjuration magic; or a Sage Sorcerer (Abjurist) proficient with a one-handed weapon.

I've already started as a Sword Saint with Estoc focus, but I wanna be sure if I've made the right choice, especially considering the existence of similar classes like Duelist & Aldori Swordlord and the temptation to dip into Sage Sorcerer (who uses INT instead of CHA) to boost Abjuration spells. It's not as much about min-maxing rather than making this concept work efficiently, the idea of a dexterous / intelligent fighter who would be mobile, hard to hit and has abjuration spells to ward himself against magic and possibly de-spell magic wielders.

So should I stick with Sword Saint? Do I dip into Sage Sorcerer (or start as one)? Or am I better off multi-classing Sorceror with Duelist?

The character is Adachi, Keen Kitsune, with the following starting attributes:

STR 8 (-1)
DEX 18 (+4)
CON 14 (+2)
INT 18 (+4)
WIS 8 (-1)
CHA 12(+1)

Any ideas welcome.

PS: High DEX / High INT is the goal. Switching to STR or WIS would require an entirely new character. CHA is negotiable.

[Razer]

İlk olarak Restoni tarafından gönderildi:

Sword Saint is great choice, and you shouldn't minmax too much, unless you really wanna minmax. Your current stats are fine for pure SS, and i think pure you should stay with SS.

I agree, even with all the options mentioned here pure Sword Saint works great too. I personally just feel bad for having no uncanny dodge and losing that dex and int AC bonus in the first round. So perhaps opt for a reach weapon in that case.

[Koveras]

RE sword saint. I'd suggest you consider switching your strength and dexterity values. Strength is better for damage. I'd also suggest you switch your charisma and wisdom values. A higher will saving throw is better. Unless you're set on a kitsune, you may wish to consider using the dhampir variant that grants a bonus to strength and intelligence. You can make the most of your intelligence score by dipping into student of war for the mind over metal perk. If you grab a level of monk you will get dodge and wisdom to AC. Together, this will allow you to (1) dump dex (2) double dip on your intelligence to AC (3) get bonus wisdom to AC. The net result is a character with high damage output and reasonable defensive capabilities. Your mileage will vary depending on difficulty setting.

[Gorilla]

İlk olarak Razer tarafından gönderildi:

Oh sorry, that's taking 2 levels of Instinctual Warrior and 2 levels of Sword Saint. So 2 points INT bonus to AC from the 2 levels.

Ah yes, Lawful. Wellll... you if you want to go allout crazy with AC you could even start Scaled fist, then level up Sword Saint, and pick chaotic options only and then at true neutral alignment you take 2 levels of Instinctual Warrior. Lol.

But yea Lawful will not work, unfortunate. Then would likely opt for 1 level of scaled fist for CHA to AC, 4 levels of rogue for weapon finesse, DEX to damage with Finesse training and you get uncanny dodge as well as debilitating injury and some sneak dice. Then the rest go with Sword Saint. You'll have a crazy amount of feats that way. If however you're going for an exotic weapon, take the SS level before Rogue so you can select finesse training for that weapon.

Not a great fan of the Monk dip (I understand the technical benefits) but roleplay-wise, it's a no for me. Personally believe Monk should be a monoclass, with perhaps a few exceptions (like Cleric). Now probably more than half of the melee builds I come across have at least a monk level, while they're supposed to be pretty niche.

But otherwise some good info. I suppose the same goes for rogue and a lawful character, though I'll definitely be researching the ability + feat options you've mentioned, or ways to replicate similar ones. Thanks!

[ayrtep]

I have been playing a 10Aldori Defender/10Duelist on solo Core. It works as a great dex-tank.

Although after seeing this beauty

Ashwood Pole Heavy Pick (Weapon)
This +4 weapon, it works the best in the hand of a person who likes to think and plan ahead. It uses an Intelligence modifier as a damage bonus, you also use your Intelligence bonus for attacks instead of Strength.

Might be bugged?

I have been thinking of restarting with a 5Fighter/5Student of war/10Duelist

Similarly you could try SS18/SOW2. Although the lack of armour issue might be a problem .... Maybe use a shield.

Wield heavy pick (1-6 20x4) so similar strength to a rapier. you start as straight Str/Int character then around act 3/4 you can get everything though intelligence - 2xAC + to hit + damage!

Oh and the Student of war allows you to use int for AC, or double AC for Duelist or SS.

Mind Over Metal
At 2nd level, when a student of war is using armor or a shield, she can use her Intelligence modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier for determining her Armor Class. The armor’s normal maximum Dexterity bonus still applies (limiting how much of the character’s Intelligence bonus she can apply to her AC).

You have a feat tax to get SOW but you no longer need fencing grace so it evens out.

[ExcaliburV]

I think sword saint by itself is pretty good for what you're looking for. I'm not much of a min-maxer, so I won't tell you a bunch of dips to take or what have you, but the only issue I see with Sorcerer/Duelist is that with Sorcerer being a 1/2 BAB class, it'd take you until about level 12 to meet the +6 BAB requirement for duelist, which means at best you're gonna get a 12/8 split, which means you'd have a worse overall BAB and armor class than just a straight sword saint, while also only being capped at 6th level spells, which is about as good of spellcasting as the sword saint gets anyways, but with better caster level bonuses for going the full 1-20.

So unless you're going for something very specific with the sorcerer/duelist, sword saint is just a better idea.

[Astral Projection]

Good tips on a tanky Sword Saint build that can do 1800+ damage per round.

I'll usually get ideas for a build from vids like this but switch some stuff up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlNZcvuY_b4

[jutschi78]

İlk olarak Razer tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Restoni tarafından gönderildi:

Sword Saint is great choice, and you shouldn't minmax too much, unless you really wanna minmax. Your current stats are fine for pure SS, and i think pure you should stay with SS.

I agree, even with all the options mentioned here pure Sword Saint works great too. I personally just feel bad for having no uncanny dodge and losing that dex and int AC bonus in the first round. So perhaps opt for a reach weapon in that case.

You can fix this with improved initiative and mythic improved initiative, pickpocket background, 1 lvl in veiled witch (acess to mage amor, iceplant hex and a familiar with a +4 initative)

So you get a ini bonus of your dex mod. + 10 (feat, background, familiar) + mythic level. So you almost the first and don't need uncanny dodge. If you get a surprise round, then you need neither uncanny dodge nor a high ini

If you want more AC,you can dip in scaled fist monk.

Spellfocus abjuration mostly useless, since very few spells of that school require a save (and as a gish you are not a good dc caster anyway). If you stay as pure SS then it could be useful to get the spell spezialisation feat (greater dispel magic). The dispel dc are quite high, so that +2 CL is an important improvement. That feat, that sickend or daze your foe, wich you dispel is an nice addition in that way.

If you like abjutation, then Aeon is a good path, since it has some dispell abilities and a gaze to increase your CL

[Gorilla]

İlk olarak ExcaliburV tarafından gönderildi:

I think sword saint by itself is pretty good for what you're looking for. I'm not much of a min-maxer, so I won't tell you a bunch of dips to take or what have you, but the only issue I see with Sorcerer/Duelist is that with Sorcerer being a 1/2 BAB class, it'd take you until about level 12 to meet the +6 BAB requirement for duelist, which means at best you're gonna get a 12/8 split, which means you'd have a worse overall BAB and armor class than just a straight sword saint, while also only being capped at 6th level spells, which is about as good of spellcasting as the sword saint gets anyways, but with better caster level bonuses for going the full 1-20.

So unless you're going for something very specific with the sorcerer/duelist, sword saint is just a better idea.

Yes, excellent point on the BAB. I hadn't even thought about something so fundamental lol

Same goes for the spell level. I think you put the nail in the coffin for anything other than Sword Saint. Thumbs up.

[Gorilla]

İlk olarak Astral Projection tarafından gönderildi:

Good tips on a tanky Sword Saint build that can do 1800+ damage per round.

I'll usually get ideas for a build from vids like this but switch some stuff up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlNZcvuY_b4

Interesting video. Not the build I'll be going for, but I'm definitely going to revisit it from time to time on my run-through for ideas. Thanks !

[Razer]

Magus class also gets access to all wizard spells at level 18 I believe. Even that late in the game that can be useful. Unless you go Trickster path and get it that way.

[Gorilla]

İlk olarak jutschi78 tarafından gönderildi:

Spellfocus abjuration mostly useless, since very few spells of that school require a save (and as a gish you are not a good dc caster anyway). If you stay as pure SS then it could be useful to get the spell spezialisation feat (greater dispel magic). The dispel dc are quite high, so that +2 CL is an important improvement. That feat, that sickend or daze your foe, wich you dispel is an nice addition in that way.

If you like abjutation, then Aeon is a good path, since it has some dispell abilities and a gaze to increase your CL

Thanks for these tips. The thought of mythic classes in addition to the base and sub classes already available makes my head explode, but I'll keep an eye out for Aeon. Thanks!

[Gorilla]

İlk olarak Razer tarafından gönderildi:

Magus class also gets access to all wizard spells at level 18 I believe. Even that late in the game that can be useful. Unless you go Trickster path and get it that way.

Correct. I'll get to choose 6 spells from the wizard list, but only levels 1 to 6. I think that oughta be more than enough for good protective spells, since I won't be going for a high damage magic output with this one.

Trickster does look appealing as a mythic path. Does it have any alignment limitations?

[Razer]

İlk olarak Gorilla tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Razer tarafından gönderildi:

Magus class also gets access to all wizard spells at level 18 I believe. Even that late in the game that can be useful. Unless you go Trickster path and get it that way.

Correct. I'll get to choose 6 spells from the wizard list, but only levels 1 to 6. I think that oughta be more than enough for good protective spells, since I won't be going for a high damage magic output with this one.

Trickster does look appealing as a mythic path. Does it have any alignment limitations?

A good spell to pick up is Sense Vitals from that list. Gives you another 5d6 sneak damage on all your attacks.

All paths, save for Legend, have alignment restrictions. I put up the alignment requirements/restrictions on the wiki here: https://pathfinderwrathoftherighteous.wiki.fextralife.com/Mythic+Path

Each has a core alignment which you can deviate from by 1 step on any axis. And for those on the extreme side of the axis true neutral is an added option.

Trickster path is Chaotic Neutral though, so that'll be tough for you. If you do not have the correct alignment you'll get a quest that switches your alignment.

Lawful Neutral path is Aeon and Lawful Good path is Angel.

Note that trickster path gets a lot of cool stuff, but for melee the most beneficial are three special feats that increase crit range and damage, but you'll need to select them on character level up. So beware of that specific requirement. You don't get them as mythic feats or powers.

[ExcaliburV]

İlk olarak Gorilla tarafından gönderildi:

Yes, excellent point on the BAB. I hadn't even thought about something so fundamental lol

Same goes for the spell level. I think you put the nail in the coffin for anything other than Sword Saint. Thumbs up.

If you wanted to go duelist, there are some options that could work. I think somebody already mentioned it, but going eldritch scoundrel/duelist would work fairly well. Rogue is a 2/3 BAB so it would keep up much better than sorcerer, even getting a small BAB improvement over the sword saint. You'd also get sneak attack, finesse training, and the like. Only downside is you'd be capped at a smaller spell level, I don't remember exactly but maybe level 4-ish if you do a 10/10 split. And it also would still have the penalty to caster level and such for multiclassing, which could make spell pen and concentration an issue. So, better on the martial side but a bit worse spellcasting.

That said, if you want to go duelist, you'll want to drop the Estoc. Duelist only really works well with one-handed piercing weapons. Half of the abilities demand you have a one-handed piercing weapon and nothing in the off-hand.

Sword Saint is still a great pick though, just positing an idea if you really really wanted to go Duelist.

I also agree that Aeon sounds like a great choice for your character. I played it as an abjuration spellcaster and had a lot of fun.

[Gorilla]

İlk olarak Razer tarafından gönderildi:

A good spell to pick up is Sense Vitals from that list. Gives you another 5d6 sneak damage on all your attacks.

All paths, save for Legend, have alignment restrictions. I put up the alignment requirements/restrictions on the wiki here: https://pathfinderwrathoftherighteous.wiki.fextralife.com/Mythic+Path

Each has a core alignment which you can deviate from by 1 step on any axis. And for those on the extreme side of the axis true neutral is an added option.

Trickster path is Chaotic Neutral though, so that'll be tough for you. If you do not have the correct alignment you'll get a quest that switches your alignment.

Lawful Neutral path is Aeon and Lawful Good path is Angel.

Note that trickster path gets a lot of cool stuff, but for melee the most beneficial are three special feats that increase crit range and damage, but you'll need to select them on character level up. So beware of that specific requirement. You don't get them as mythic feats or powers.

Sense Vitals is a solid suggestion. Might pick that one up.

Nice informative page, that wiki. You created it?

I find alignment pretty relevant for the role-playing aspect, personally speaking. Though I've already made a few non-lawful dialogue choices, so who knows where I'll be later on.

The crit range feat you mentioned, is it one that stacks with improved critical?