Angel Oracle strictly superior to Angel Cleric ? (core difficulty)

[Matt]

The question is in the title.

1) Oracle gets 2 more spell uses per level.

2) Oracle gets spontaneous casting, so no need to overthink what spells you need to memorize. Let me give an exemple :

Cleric : How many Prot. from Elements/Freedom of Movement/Death Ward should I memorize ? (all 3 spells being situationnaly very useful).
Oracle : Don't bother. Just cast what you need when you need it.

3) In theory, the Oracle will know less spells of each level. But considering they get *all* angels spells added to their spellbook at M3 and that those spells include most (if not all) the Heal/restoration spells from the Cleric spellbook, they just need a few well chosen spell picks and they'll be able to cast any spell a Cleric could wish to memorize

4) Ok, but Clerics get domains. Well, what for ?

Community ? A sensei True Strike Advice is +20 Atk to everyone. Complement that with Vital Strike+Mythic and you really don't need Guarded Hearth (at least on Core)

Animal ? The Oracle can have a companion too (with less choice, arguably)

Touch of Law ? Quite a good level 1 power if you don't reload failed skill checks, but does it really counterbalance all the advantages the Oracle get ? Plus, ironically, you could give a 1 Cleric level dip to the Sensei if you really want some uses of that Touch of Law.

5) Channel Energy. All Clerics can do that, only Life Oracles can (and you may want to not be a Life Oracle, since there are some other very good mysteries). And it is arguably a good ability.

Still, as a MC Cleric who just reached M3, I have the feeling that my future life would have been much easier if I had been an Oracle instead...

Thoughts ?

Edit : Oh, and I forgot :

6) Clerics get new spell levels a little bit earlier than Oracles. Considering how fast your caster level increases with merged spellbooks, I'm not sure the difference is really noticeable.

[Conquista]

angel with an merged spellbook is already easy mode, doesn't matter if you are a druid, shaman, cleric or oracle

[Matt]

I can hardly disagree with that : I played an Angel Inquisitor on my first run, and the difference is quite noticeable !

But still, an argument could be made to differenciate easy and very easy ;)

Also, it's not only a matter of difficulty : easy or not, a Cleric needs to think in advance which spells he will need, which can be a bit tedious. An Oracle doesn't have to do that, and ends up casting more spells, from a selection just as wide.

[Selvokaz]

I honestly find the Angel path insanely boring. They did a great job of turning one off to the idea of being an Angel in this game.

[Conquista]

Originally posted by Matt:

I can hardly disagree with that : I played an Angel Inquisitor on my first run, and the difference is quite noticeable !

But still, an argument could be made to differenciate easy and very easy ;)

Also, it's not only a matter of difficulty : easy or not, a Cleric needs to think in advance which spells he will need, which can be a bit tedious. An Oracle doesn't have to do that, and ends up casting more spells, from a selection just as wide.

an inquisitor can't merge spellbooks, so i'm not sure what you want to say with that

the only classes that can are druid, shaman, cleric and oracle

and if you play on core with an divine merged spellbook, know what you are doing and you want to play optimal than its pretty much the same for all of them

and that is to spam bolt of justice and storm of justice over and over again and win every encounter in one or two rounds of combat

[Matt]

I'm playing on core but also on Last Azlanti. And I'm planning to go for the Sadistic achievement if possible.

So, spamming bolts/storms of justice might win the fights easily, but I need to keep some slots for defense too : Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Protection from elements, that kind of stuff. And since I'm trying to stay below 75 rests, maybe I'm not going to spam those spells on every fight.

Hence my point : The Oracle doesn't need to chose in advance what he'll use. The Cleric does.

Edit : I'm already winning the majority of fights in 1-2 rounds of combat, and I really doubt that the 14d6 damage from Bolt of Justice would make a huge difference. As for Storm of Justice, I don't have access to it yet, but let's say I reach caster level 16 and cast it : ok, 56 damage on every monster, on average, assuming it isn't resisted. I'm glad I have some mercs in the team who can do better than that.

[Conquista]

the best team setups ingame are based around your mc being the damage dealer and your companions being supporters, you can do the same with an angel mc, so put these support spells on your companions

so what next are you now soloing the game

[Matt]

Originally posted by Conquista:

the best team setups ingame are based around your mc being the damage dealer

I'd rather play an MC Angel Cleric/Oracle and have a Rowdy/Vivi merc that does 120 damage on average times the number of targets in his range (he's level 11 mind you, and has Improved Cleaving Finish) than be a MC Rowdy/Vivi accompanied by a Cleric or an Oracle with a limited spellbook.

Originally posted by Conquista:

so what next are you now soloing the game

Not at all. Full team. But I'm not taking a nap after every other fight.

Edit : In fact it's 144, not 120.

Powerful Change (PC) Enlarged + PC Bull Strength Rowdy 1/Vivisectionist 10,
Vital Strike = [10(from STR)x1.5+3(Soulshear)+2d8(Weapon Damage)]x3+6d6x3 --> 144
And he's not even using Power Attack... just so that he hits on a 1.
I have some serious doubts that spells can compete with that, at the beginning of Act3.

[Conquista]

so you want to play an support mc in a party alright

lets say you are a new players with no knowledge about pathfinder and wotr, than yes the qol advantage of an spontaneous caster could lead to a more enjoyable experience for you

but if you know what you are doing and still want to play an support mc and optimize, than i see no good reason for you to drop domain powers for anything that oracle can offer

[Matt]

Not being a new player doesn't mean you don't enjoy the quality of life... especially when trying to keep the number of rests as low as possible and not having the option to reload if you forgot a needed buff.

And as I wrote in the first post, at least on Core, domains are not *that* great :

Community (or any domain that buffs Attack, really) can be advantageously replaced by a Sensei.

Animal, well Oracles have their version of that domain, sort of.

Only truly useful Domain Power is Touch of Law, imo, but I could have had Lann, or a temporary merc, take care of this, and then given the Sensei a 1 level Cleric dip at level 11, to make up for the loss of that power from being an Oracle.

But you're right : I can plan in advance what spells I'll need. It's just that I would really prefer not having to do that. Playing the game, rather than spending time thinking about the spells I'll need in the next 3 areas. Considering I've almost reached half of the game, I won't restart from scratch, thought. But I wish I had thought about that when I started the game (by that time, I thought that Guarded Hearth would be mandatory; with a bit of thinking, I would have realized that if was indeed superfluous).

[Conquista]

you know what i start with the areas in which the oracle angel is indeed better and that is in being a gish because of his caster stat being charisma and him having an easier time stacking ac and ab

and that is so good that it can pretty much solo the game really easy

but as a caster you will perform worse, spontaneous caster have worse interaction with metamagic and you just have less support option without these domains powers, which have definitely more value on higher difficulties

but it overall sounds like you are doing a challenge run with all these goals you set for yourself, so ya if you preplan some stuff than limited resting won't be an issue, if you don't preplan and want more challenge, than yes the spontaneous casting can save you

so to answer your question if the oracle angel is strictly superior than the cleric angel, not necessarly really depends on your goal, don't get me wrong it used to be pretty much superior in all areas, but that got nerfed when they stopped getting 20 additional charisma from glory domain

oh and btw i have no idea how you calculate the damage for bolt of justice to reach 56 at caster level 16
its 1d10 against evil outsider per caster level, so 16 * 1d10 is at average 80, because everything is pretty much an evil outsider in this game and the damage can't be resisted
if you ever want to try it out on another playthrough, you will see how easy it is to just spam these two spells and win the game, so easy its dumb

[Vae Victis]

I like cleric domains. Pet, attack bonus, saving throws, DR, double rolls, strength.

Angel gives you a lot of str bonuses and size increasing abilities, to me that seems like a easy pick for melee cleric or shaman

that being said, a wizard might be the best at single target DPS (making this up) but i'm still picking sorc as a MC for charisma and spontaneous casting.

[Matt]

Originally posted by Conquista:

oh and btw i have no idea how you calculate the damage for bolt of justice to reach 56 at caster level 16

16d6 = 16x3.5=56. But it's true that I underestimated it.
I wouldn't agree that everyone is an outsider, but almost everyone is evil, for sure (even the mercs in my team ! mostly because I wanted them to be immune to Blasphemy).
So that would be 16d8=16x4.5=72
And you right about the fact that the damage can't be resisted (my bad).

However, let's put it that way :

Since my last rest, the team has killed Devarra (388 HP), 3 Mandragoras (305+305 HP, for some reason the Silent Mandragora auto-killed itself), a few Plagued Wolves (let's say 0 HP), maybe 10 Babau Warriors (113 HP each), 5 Glabrezus iirc (186-210 HP each) and 1 Gormandizer (284 HP). That's a little bit above 3000 HPs. Before I rest again, I'm hoping to clear at the very least Greengates and Molten Scar. I really don't know how many more HPs that will be, but 3000 more seems likely (from what I remember, there are a few tough mobs at Greengates). So let's say that it's 6000 HPs of monsters total. One bolt of Justice is merely a little more than 1% of the total damage I need to do. And I only have 4 level 6 slots atm, at least one of which is used for Aegis of the Faithful. So I really can't just rely on that spell for damage, no matter how powerful it is.

[Ghost]

the Impossible Domain feat is pretty nice allowing Community, Nobility, Animal domains for 1 priest

[Hex]

Oracle does 1 thing extremely well. Cleric is more versatile and can adapt to situations. It's a matter of preference.

Just like with Daeran vs Sosiel. Sosiel can hang just fine through the entire game as you party healer if you build him right. Daeran is just way simpler.

[Conquista]

Originally posted by Matt:

Since my last rest, the team has killed Devarra (388 HP), 3 Mandragoras (305+305 HP, for some reason the Silent Mandragora auto-killed itself), a few Plagued Wolves (let's say 0 HP), maybe 10 Babau Warriors (113 HP each), 5 Glabrezus iirc (186-210 HP each) and 1 Gormandizer (284 HP). That's a little bit above 3000 HPs. Before I rest again, I'm hoping to clear at the very least Greengates and Molten Scar. I really don't know how many more HPs that will be, but 3000 more seems likely (from what I remember, there are a few tough mobs at Greengates). So let's say that it's 6000 HPs of monsters total. One bolt of Justice is merely a little more than 1% of the total damage I need to do. And I only have 4 level 6 slots atm, at least one of which is used for Aegis of the Faithful. So I really can't just rely on that spell for damage, no matter how powerful it is.

i do agree that using spells on a limited rest run as main damage is suboptimal, but just to make clear

bolt of justice is mostly for boss units because its single target

storm of justice is a huge aoe that will hit everyone from far away and can clear trash units in 1 to 2 rounds