Want to try a kineticist, anything I should watch out for?

[MattStriker]

I didn't use the twins much in Kingmaker and I built them entirely based on a guide I looked up online without ever really understanding why the writer made various picks. It's hands-down the most mechanically weird class in the game, functioning quite differently from anything else.

So I figured I might need some help figuring this out.

What's good, what's bad, what's interesting to play around with even if it's not strictly "optimal", and what kind of synergies are there with Azata, Angel or Trickster mythic paths? (Can't bring myself to play any of the evil-aligned ones...and I count LN Aeons as evil due to how ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ written the Lawful choices are in this game :P).

[-0[]0-]

Within the past 2 months on this forum a user reported their 'Unfair' playthrough using a Kineticist and how they did it, pretty detailed.

[Conquista]

just spam deadly earth and you won the game, there is not much synergy for the good aligned mythic paths beside getting more kineticists on your side doing the same stuff but its not really needed

[-0[]0-]

Originally posted by Conquista:

just spam deadly earth and you won the game, there is not much synergy for the good aligned mythic paths beside getting more kineticists on your side doing the same stuff but its not really needed

Just Spam Deadly Earth.

I typed 3 responses and realized I understood none of them.

[lemurs2]

The most basic, if you are not a human, levels 1 & 2 are going to suck because you do not have precise shot.

[B Unit]

The Kineticist subclasses are often considered inferior to the base class so you may want to go with that unless you have some specific build in mind. You wont want to multiclass much, if at all, as a Kineticist either. You can get away with 1 level in another class but more than that isnt worth it.

Taking fire element twice will net you pure flame blasts which are unique in that they are the only combined element blast that targets spell resistance rather than armor class - very handy later in the game. Some people swear by Deadly Earth as well - you can make earth your 3rd element if you want to try that.

As for mythic path interactions - not a whole lot. I would go either Azata for zippy magic (which not only works on blasts but kinetic saber, which when combined with haste, can really wreak havoc on an enemy group) or Trickster for the improved critical on kinetic blasts.

[gmwaddington]

Originally posted by sweetchilliheat:

As for mythic path interactions - not a whole lot. I would go either Azata for zippy magic (which not only works on blasts but kinetic saber, which when combined with haste, can really wreak havoc on an enemy group) or Trickster for the improved critical on kinetic blasts.

I thought Zippy Magic had been nerfed so that some things don't work with it anymore.

[Princess Pilfer]

It was. Kineticist (also basically every Martial class) gets nothing from Azata post 1.2.

[Frostfeather]

You should watch out for the fact that Deadly Earth and Cloud are severely bugged in your favor. So much so that using them is basically cheating.

Not that anyone cares if you cheat, but it is something to consider if you want some kind of challenge to the combat.

[Gorwe]

You should also be aware of few things:

* Wild Talents: You generally can't reduce the cost of these. So, if you want to rely on these, find an archetype that helps with that. For Healing(Kinetic Healer), that's Blood Kineticist(you'll have to give yourself that buff via Toybox mod because it's currently bugged). So, if you want to use WTs, always leave few points open.

* Archetypes: If you don't know what you're doing, it's best to go with the Base Kineticist. Here is a basic breakdown of archetypes:

Blood Kineticist: Generally focused on dps+heal playstyle, but is bugged.

Dark Elementalist: If you want to use a LOT of skills while playing Kine, this is your choice. Go Human DE. Its management of Burn is ... wonky. Mostly due to crucial info not being shown to you.

Elemental Engine: You want ♥♥♥♥ dead? Ele.Engine is your friend! Be it Deadly Earth shenanigans or the "awesome power of fire", this is your go to archetype. Be careful though. If you would go for the full damage(like you should with EE), you will be squishy.

Kinetic Knight: Melee Kineticist that specializes in auto attacks and heavy armor. Also has a nice, big Cleave. This archetype could be very easy way to get started with Kine.

Overwhelming Soul: Just avoid. You give away entirely too much(for one, you CAN'T USE Wild Talents!) for next to no reward. You scale off the worst stat(CHA) and are just meh. Now, if it auto attacked with mini blasts at range...

Psychokineticist: Scales off WIS and has different penalties(mostly becoming vulnerable to CC). Mostly a solo archetype. Don't see why would anyone take it over the Base or EE in a group.

[Princess Pilfer]

I'm not aware of any such bug. They're very strong because they're no-save damage. No-Save damage when enemy AC and Saving Throws get so high is very powerful.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Princess Pilfer:

I'm not aware of any such bug. They're very strong because they're no-save damage. No-Save damage when enemy AC and Saving Throws get so high is very powerful.

Deadly Earth and Cloud effects are applied twice when you first cast them. It's a well known bug that carried over from Kingmaker that also affects Blade Barrier, Web, Entangle, Stinking Cloud, Wall of Light, and whatever else.

On top of that, these two abilities already do about double damage vs what they would in tabletop. So you're getting about quadruple the damage you're supposed to when you first use it, and since you can probably spam it, that's potentially every round. The no-save thing is balanced around it doing less damage, so it makes the problem even worse even though it's not really the core issue.

I did ask Tabletop Tweaks to take a look at it since Owlcat has been failing us for years on it. There was some discussion about it at TTT, but I'm not sure if it was ever resolved or not.

[Princess Pilfer]

I mean nobody should care what it does in tabletop. Fewer options that exist just to trick players into gimping themselves=better.

But I mean if you cut their damage in half when you first cast them it honestly woulnd't change that the reason they're so strong is that kineticists do a lot of damage so being able to spam moderate-high no-save damage (and not having to worry about spell slots or anything) is very strong when the enemies have such inflated saves/AC. (If you cut it down to 1/4 it'd be completely useless. Kinda like they are most of the time in tabletop even without the enemy stat bloat.)

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Princess Pilfer:

I mean nobody should care what it does in tabletop. Fewer options that exist just to trick players into gimping themselves=better.

But I mean if you cut their damage in half when you first cast them it honestly woulnd't change that the reason they're so strong is that kineticists do a lot of damage so being able to spam moderate-high no-save damage (and not having to worry about spell slots or anything) is very strong when the enemies have such inflated saves/AC. (If you cut it down to 1/4 it'd be completely useless. Kinda like they are most of the time in tabletop even without the enemy stat bloat.)

Why does a Fireball or a weapon or any of the other 700 things from tabletop do the damage they do in tabletop then? It's not even fundamentally a matter of replicating tabletop - it's a matter of balance. If a dev uses the damage for 90+% of things from tabletop and changes this one that doesn't roll to hit and doesn't have a save... AND screws up coding it so it takes effect twice on top of that... that's a huge problem. This isn't like 5% of something here or there or a piece of gear that doesn't work right, it's so broken it's cheating.

The problem isn't just with Kineticists, either. Anyone that can cast these bugged spells are overpowered, especially in Wrath where new Metamagic and mythic abilities compound the existing issue.

I would actually settle for only the double effect thing to be fixed. After all, they may have had their reasons for doubling the damage. Quadruple is just too much though and it's obviously a mistake.

[Princess Pilfer]

PF1 is not balanced on tabletop. The very idea that any of the choices were made with 'balance' in mind is hilarious. They work the way they do in tabletop because that's what the devs thought would be a good idea. That's the beginning and end of it.
If you need more detail consider that PF1 carries a lot of it's DNA from DnD 3e and DnD from that era designed choices to be bad on purpose, there's whole classes you're not actually meant to play, you're meant to see that they suck and feel smart for avoiding them.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Princess Pilfer:

PF1 is not balanced on tabletop. The very idea that any of the choices were made with 'balance' in mind is hilarious. They work the way they do in tabletop because that's what the devs thought would be a good idea. That's the beginning and end of it.
If you need more detail consider that PF1 carries a lot of it's DNA from DnD 3e and DnD from that era designed choices to be bad on purpose, there's whole classes you're not actually meant to play, you're meant to see that they suck and feel smart for avoiding them.

I... don't get what any of this has to do with an obvious bug that makes things take effect twice.

Just keep cheating if you want. Setting aside the base numerical damage, some of us actually want spells and abilities to work the way they're supposed to though.