Multiclass vs single class.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Confession.
I never multiclass.
I find it destroy's the class idea.
Part of me wants to multiclass my companions.
Part of me wants to keep the pure single class.

So my question is this:
What are the pro's of multiclass vs the pro's of pure single class.

[MattStriker]

Multiclass is the way to go if you want to optimize. A single class character (except maybe a cleric with the right domains) will never get close to the potential of some weird mix of 5 different classes, that's just how Pathfinder works whether on PC or on the tabletop.

If you don't care about being the absolute best at what you do, single-class tends to have some things with a lot of flavor and style to them near the end.

Note that for any difficulty below Core you'll be perfectly fine without any weird optimization and even at Core you should be able to make it through if you know what you're doing. It's really only on Hard and Unfair that this becomes truly relevant.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by MattStriker:

Multiclass is the way to go if you want to optimize. A single class character (except maybe a cleric with the right domains) will never get close to the potential of some weird mix of 5 different classes, that's just how Pathfinder works whether on PC or on the tabletop.

If you don't care about being the absolute best at what you do, single-class tends to have some things with a lot of flavor and style to them near the end.

Note that for any difficulty below Core you'll be perfectly fine without any weird optimization and even at Core you should be able to make it through if you know what you're doing. It's really only on Hard and Unfair that this becomes truly relevant.

Wait.
Even wizards are better multiclassed?

[Chunky]

You don't need to multiclass on anything up to hard.

I haven't really multiclassed and I've breezed through on core and pretty easily gone through on hard. I've also tried a few of the harder fights on unfair. I might consider it to get through Shield maze / Act 1 on unfair but otherwise I don't think it's necessary.

I would also guess a number of companions are significantly better as a single class. I really doubt any multiclass is as strong as leveling Arue/Greybor until they get free action +4 quarry (at 19 I think?) and the highest favored enemy bonuses. Also Wenduag's fighter capstone ability is quite strong. If you did multiclass Daeran/Nenio/Ember, I assume you'd want to get at least Lvl 17/18 in their primary class for Level 9 spells anyway so it'd be more like a dip.

To me, the advantage of multiclassing is getting to try out multiple different classes on one run.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by MattStriker:

Multiclass is the way to go if you want to optimize. A single class character (except maybe a cleric with the right domains) will never get close to the potential of some weird mix of 5 different classes, that's just how Pathfinder works whether on PC or on the tabletop.

Lmao. Tell me about optimizing an arcane caster by multiclassing. I want to hear this.

[Frozen Dervish]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Originally posted by MattStriker:

Multiclass is the way to go if you want to optimize. A single class character (except maybe a cleric with the right domains) will never get close to the potential of some weird mix of 5 different classes, that's just how Pathfinder works whether on PC or on the tabletop.

Lmao. Tell me about optimizing an arcane caster by multiclassing. I want to hear this.

I mean that's easy.

Crossblooded 1/Wizard 19 at the bare minimum for bonus damage to fire damage to make hellfire ray hit harder.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Frozen Dervish:

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Lmao. Tell me about optimizing an arcane caster by multiclassing. I want to hear this.

I mean that's easy.

Crossblooded 1/Wizard 19 at the bare minimum for bonus damage to fire damage to make hellfire ray hit harder.

If you're playing a hellfire spammer or any other direct damage caster, you're not optimizing anything, you're playing a suboptimal build by definition. An optimal arcane caster inflicts infinite damage in an AoE. Hellfire Ray damage is neither infinite, nor is it AoE.

[shaurun]

Multiclass if:
- you love to optimize things, and you don't care a lot about flavor
- you are bored with some classes/companions (escpecially after 1st playthrough)


Single class is not weak. Most build people use to play on hard/unfair are really boring because they dip into same classes, so I've even started to hate it. If you are considering of multiclass, my advice would be either:
- pick optimal multiclass build from the internet just to feel cool
- OR jsut plan your own multiclass build ahead, not looking to other's builds - try to combine some features, check trade offs, that could be interesting
- OR just go for prestige class

[seeker1]

Well, I did experiment with multi-classing in some of the prestige classes in the game. Unfortunately, most are not that worth it or interesting, outside of one Regill gets by default (Hellknight), and the others I think I liked most were Arcane Trickster and Dragon Disciple.

Assassin was as disappointing as some say (poison being so useless, death attack rarely works), Winter Witch ... eh? ... might be better if there were more cold spells ... I would love Loremaster if it wasn't broken.

So, I will say some of the best abilities for some single classes come online at lvl20. Unfortunately, that's also fairly late in the game. Slayer doesn't get Master Slayer until lvl20, but if you make Greybor an Executioner (takes a mod), he gets Assassinate at lvl10.

If you go Legend, you can actually, truly, take the lvl20 abilities of two classes ... now that's rad multi-classing.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by seeker1:

So, I will say some of the best abilities for some single classes come online at lvl20. Unfortunately, that's also fairly late in the game.

You can "easily" reach level 20 at the very start of chapter 4 by farming Nocticula's palace guards for massive XP. They give something like 300k per battle and respawn on leaving/reentering area. You won't get any XP for killing them the 2nd time, but you will get the XP on the 3rd time and on further kills.

The reason why I wrote "easily" is because they are the "hardest" battle in the game relative to your available powers, if you fight them at the very start of chapter 4, so many players will be crushed by them. The XP is worth the attempt, though, it's kinda like a "secret" challenge encounter.

[Princess Pilfer]

Most (though not all) classes benefit a *lot* from multiclassing, because of how unevenly they scale as they level and how powerful low level class features can be.
Also by the time you're at level 20 you're basically god (even before mythic powers are a factor) so 'big' shifts in power don't actually move the needle that much.

The most mechanically valuable use of multiclassing by far is to make sure your character is scaling well in the early to mid game. 1 level of Beastrider Cavalier (Order doesn't really matter) to pick up a Dog for Seelah is a *massive* benefit, especially early in the game. (Dogs are really good, and you're getting your animal companion early and in the videogames at least animal companions are also really good.)

If you want examples of some classes that scale relatively evenly through the entire game, and so don't need to and/or don't want to multiclass: Slayer, Warpriest, Cleric, Oracle, Wizard, Witch, Sorcerer, Shaman, Bloodrager, Instinctual Warrior (barbarian,) Mutation Warrior (fighter,) Alchemist (Grenadier,) Kineticist.

You *can* multiclass any of those, but for some (ex: Warpriest, Kineticist) it's generally a bad idea and for others (ex: Slayer, Cleric, Mutation Warrior) it might make you stronger but it's just not necessary, the class scales well enough to stay good the whole game. For example do Cleric and Oracle like 1 level of monk to get a bunch of free AC? Sure. Do they need it? Well they're full divine caster so no, they do not, unless they're trying to be the groups main tank. DC 57 Persistent Greater Command works just as well at 40 AC as it does at 200 AC.

(PS ignore Mj. they just aren't worth engaging with)

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by Princess Pilfer:

If you want examples of some classes that scale relatively evenly through the entire game, and so don't need to and/or don't want to multiclass: Oracle

You have never built a good oracle. Oracle is one of the classes that benefits most from multiclassing. You can build an Oracle that performs a quadruple CHA->AC conversion, not that you'd know about things like that.

Originally posted by Princess Pilfer:

do Cleric and Oracle like 1 level of monk to get a bunch of free AC? Sure. Do they need it? Well they're full divine caster so no, they do not, unless they're trying to be the groups main tank. DC 57 Persistent Greater Command

Lmao at using an Orcale as an Enchantment caster without access to mind-fog granting domains the cleric gets. I can guarantee you have never built a proper divine caster enchanter either and played above core with it.

Moreover, DC 57 is garbage, you won't even scratch unfair Areshkagal's will save of 73 with that pathetic DC, which means that whatever garbage you've built is not viable above core to begin with.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2782487092

Now after I'm done with you, you can ignore me :)

[Princess Pilfer]

See? That's why they're not worth engaging with.

Interpreting 'you can play a powerful oracle without multiclassing' as 'uber minmaxed turbo optimized oracles are the only oracles that matter and staying pure is the best way to do that' and then trying to use that thing you didn't actually say to tell you that you don't know the mechanics.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Originally posted by Princess Pilfer:

See? That's why they're not worth engaging with.

Interpreting 'you can play a powerful oracle without multiclassing' as 'uber minmaxed turbo optimized oracles are the only oracles that matter and staying pure is the best way to do that' and then trying to use that thing you didn't actually say to tell you that you don't know the mechanics.

Yeah i noticed.
I mean its nice to know the builds exist now if only someone would accauly explain to me(Someone who never multiclassed before) how you multiclass(What do you look for, what do you avoid, what kind of mindset you need)
I mean a friend of mine manage to one shot nosfaratu?
The queen of the midnight island.
They manage to make there wierd a 71 dc.
Even if her horniness rolled a 20 she wouldnt have enough to survive.
I am anoyed i do not know how to putt that level of cheese.

[AzureTheGamerKobold]

Multi-Classing in PF is unfortunatly still very powerful but i think that's true of 3.5, and 5e to, you just gain alot from dipping 1 or 2 levels into another class. It's why i HEAVILY control multi-classing in my home games. Because if i didn't, it would just break the game. That said...

I think every single class can do just fine without multi-classing, and i'm betting you can beat everything except maybe unfair without every multi-classing. Capstones just aren't as strong as they could be, but paizo did try really hard to fix that issue.

[Princess Pilfer]

Originally posted by Malaficus Shaikan:

Originally posted by Princess Pilfer:

See? That's why they're not worth engaging with.

Interpreting 'you can play a powerful oracle without multiclassing' as 'uber minmaxed turbo optimized oracles are the only oracles that matter and staying pure is the best way to do that' and then trying to use that thing you didn't actually say to tell you that you don't know the mechanics.

Yeah i noticed.
I mean its nice to know the builds exist now if only someone would accauly explain to me(Someone who never multiclassed before) how you multiclass(What do you look for, what do you avoid, what kind of mindset you need)
I mean a friend of mine manage to one shot nosfaratu?
The queen of the midnight island.
They manage to make there wierd a 71 dc.
Even if her horniness rolled a 20 she wouldnt have enough to survive.
I am anoyed i do not know how to putt that level of cheese.

It depends on what you're trying to minmax for.

For example, if you're trying to minmax for AC what you really, really want is multiple stats contributing, or the same stat contributing multiple times. (And knowing which of those bonuses do and don't stack) and ideally also access to mage armor. (As a spell, not a scroll or a potion.)
For example, Smite Evil/Mark of justice (paladin,) Natures Whispers (the oralce revelation,) Smite Chaos (hellknight) and Scaled Fist monk all add charisma to their AC at least some of the time, so you can turn your 10-15 charisma mod into 40-60 AC. Monk also gets access to Crane Style without having to pay the feat tax of Improved Unarmed Strike first, which nets 8 more.

The 71DC thing is a likely bug involving takeing spell focus/greater spell focus for every spell school *except* the spell school you actually want to focus on, and using Expanded Arsenal to apply all those bonuses to that 1 school. Without that you'll *really* struggle to get your DC above 60. (I don't think you actually can get it above 60 without that likely bug unless it's for enchantments specifically but I'm not sure.)

1 shotting a lot of bosses isn't hard though, if you decide you want to build to minmax and ignore all RP stuff. For example Trick of Fate (the trickster spell. Mythic path not the arcane class) lets you roll 20s on every roll for 3 rounds. There's a feat I forget the name of that lets you get an extra shield bash attack every time you crit. If you can only roll 20s you always crit (as long as you don't miss because of concealment) which will instantly kill any enemy in the game as you get infinite critical hit shield bashes against them.

Similarly, a Crossblooded Sorcerer with an extra bloodline from their mythic path (or a wizard who took 1 level of crossblooded sorcerer and got the extra bloodline) can use a maximise rod on an empowered hellfire ray and do 22d6+66 per ray and hit with 3 rays for ~420 damage. (IIRC the extra dice added by empowered are not maximised.) And it's a touch spell so sneak attacks apply (all 3 times last I checked, despite the rules saying they don't) you can crit for double the non-sneak-attack damage (see: Trick of Fate again if you want to garuntee that) and end up doing well over 900 single target damage in just 1 cast. There are things that will survive that but there aren't very many.