Natural Weapon and Dual Wielding Questions

[fox5s]

I'm working on a build for Wenduag. It's Fighter 3 / Stigmatized Witch 1 / Cult Leader 16. The idea is to pick up two claws and a bite with the Witch level via Nails Hex and Oracle curse, use the fighter levels for some easy Weapon focuses for them, and then use the Sacred Weapon (and Sneak Attack) of the Cult Leader to turn them into actually dangerous weapons. A very flavorful build (the idea for which I have shamelessly stolen).

My question is about how that interacts with Two-Weapon Fighting and iterative attacks when BAB gets high enough. Is there a Multi-Attack feat she can access? Would it be worthwhile to throw Improved Unarmed Strike into the mix? Basically, what do I need to do to maximize her number of attacks and damage bonus for those attacks?

I know how it would work in PnP and could work it out there. However, WotR doesn't exactly follow PnP RAW. Thank you in advance! ^^

[Stink Bug]

Two-weapon fighting and Improved Unarmed strike are completely irrelevant for natural weapons; you'll also never get iterative attacks either unless you're wielding a manufactured weapon (which will block both claws unless you use a one-handed light weapon, in which case it'll just block one); the only way to increase the number is to add more natural weapons (for Wendaug there's at least two helmets that add a headbutt attack, and you can stack bites unlike PnP so 2 levels of Dragon Disciple will get you another one) or use haste/similar spells. On the flip site an all-natural weapon build's attacks are generally all at full AB bonus so you'll hit more often.

I don't believe the Multi-Attack feat is available for non-pets, but if it is all it'll do is lower the penalty for secondary natural weapons to -2 (instead of -5). Flurry of Blows won't work either, UNLESS you're using a mod that adds the Feral Combat Training feat (I think there's two which do so), or Sohei might work if one of it's weapon training groups includes natural weapons (I don't know if this is the case).

[fox5s]

Okay, that answers most of my questions. Unarmed Strike would still work but no Flurrying so adding in a Monk level wouldn't make sense for what i'm doing. However, possibly picking up Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon Focus might help.

Sounds like I'll cap out at 4 attacks that way. (I've run a build that uses Draconic Bloodline claws and Flurry before; the result of which is 1 Unarmed attack and 2 claws (at full BAB) when the claws are on and two Unarmed when they aren't)

Unless I decide to use a weapon. Then it would be normal iterative attacks + two natural attacks (assuming a 1h weapon) at -5. That might have been worthwhile with Multi-attack to reduce that to -2 but might be asking a bit too much of this build.

[Schlumpsha]

Improved Unarmed Strike and claws cancel each other out: only the newest "fist" source applies. Older sources will be overwritten.

[fox5s]

Are you sure? Like I said, using the temp claws gained from the Draconic Bloodline, my full attack got one Unarmed and two Claws all at the full BAB.

Meh! i could always test it by throwing down a save, leveling with Improved Unarmed Strike, and see what happens with a Full Attack. It's only a one level test. I'll report the results soonish.

[Schlumpsha]

Just create a Feral Champion with permanent claws and take Improved Unarmed Strike later on. You'll notice your claws will be replaced by fists instead. Toggable claws can at least be deactivated, but that's more of an exception.

[fox5s]

I'm currently on a playthrough with that Wendu and I'll be able to test that interaction in one more level. The toggle ability might be an exception. But I'll report the results either way. :D

[fox5s]

This was an unexpected result. I saved and leveled Wenduag and picked Improved Unarmed Strike. Next fight, instead of an Unarmed, 2 Claws, and a Bite OR an Unarmed, a Claw, and a Bite she attacked with only an Unarmed and a Bite. Turning on Sacred Weapon had no effect.

Looks like my Wenduag will be stuck with three attacks. High damage attacks (eventually) and at her full BAB so it's not all bad.

Rereading your response @Schlumpsha, you were actually saying both claws would be overwritten. I misinterpreted that to you saying only 1 claw attack would be lost.

PnP rules for Unarmed Strike and Natural Attacks are weird and were definitely coloring my expectations. I believe PnP would treat Unarmed as a sort of handless weapon and give you Unarmed Strike at full BAB including iterative attacks (no Flurry) and then 2 Claws and a Bite at -5 for being Secondary Natural Attacks.

[dszombiex]

Originally posted by Stink Bug:

... Flurry of Blows won't work either, UNLESS you're using a mod that adds the Feral Combat Training feat (I think there's two which do so), or Sohei might work if one of it's weapon training groups includes natural weapons (I don't know if this is the case).

1 level of Sohei and 5 levels of Fighter to get Natural Weapons training works.

[Schlumpsha]

Originally posted by fox5s:

Rereading your response @Schlumpsha, you were actually saying both claws would be overwritten.

Yup, that's how it works. Unarmed strikes really are coded like natural weapons, which are wielded in both hands at the same time. Claws do the same and with their own natural weapons. Given that both of them take up the same two weapon slots, they'll replace each other.

Hence why only the newest source applies. You won't ever be able to dual wield unarmed strike with a claw in your other hand. It is one or the other at any given time. Not both.

[Ichthyic]

you can stack as many bite attacks as you like though. I saw someone build a barbarian/cleric that had 11 bite attacks, 6 weapon attacks, one gore attack, and one tail attack. it was like a buzzsaw. :P

[fox5s]

Yeah, the build i'm using with the Sorc Claws has three Bites and a Gore. Which, by PnP rules, doesn't make sense without multiple heads. Which reminds me that this game is missing the Summoner.... That could be fun.