Sosiel vs Seelah

[art_loots]

just started a new campaign with a halfling cavalier order of the paw build. want good aligned or neutral companions in my party for this. but now i just entered act 2 and i was wondering, why would you ever use Sosiel over Seelah when seelah does everything sosiel can do but beter.

party btw or those interested:
Main party member
Seelah
Ember
Woljif
Nenio
Lann (the idiot) but guess have to roll with him to have a archer

[Ichthyic]

because seelah is a paladin, not a cleric. she will never have access to extra domain abilities, or high level spells.

just depends on whether you want a melee companion or a casting companion. I turned sos into a summoner/blaster and that worked out quite well. those two characters complement each other, they aren't meant to replace each other.

[Invisible]

I personally don't like sosil as character, but he is the strongest cleric in the game. If you want level 3 delay posion communal (against stinking clouds) as fast as possible choose him. Paladin can max have spell level 6 and this takes a loooong time. Sosil gives you a pletora of buffs right out of the box. He can heal your entiere party in one turn after you catch a fireball wiht positiv channeling. Give him a phylactery of positiv channeling and extra channeling, you have the best healer with you.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by art_loots:

just started a new campaign with a halfling cavalier order of the paw build. want good aligned or neutral companions in my party for this. but now i just entered act 2 and i was wondering, why would you ever use Sosiel over Seelah when seelah does everything sosiel can do but beter.

party btw or those interested:
Main party member
Seelah
Ember
Woljif
Nenio
Lann (the idiot) but guess have to roll with him to have a archer

Cleric and Paladin abilities support each other very well.

Mark of Justice stacks with Guarded Hearth and Visions of Madness. Mark of Justice scales off Charisma and Touch of Glory buffs Charisma.

Ember, Woljif and Lann are never an optimal choice in any party.

[Freak4Leeks]

because sosiel is hot and less annoying. I didn't mind her until i had interactions with curl. I made sure to throw her out of my party as soon as possible, Camellia as well for insulting Ember KEK

[Schlumpsha]

Sosiel vs. Seelah? Sosiel would win in that death match.

[forrestomintero]

If you want a caster/heal bot, you choose sosiel. If you want a frontline fighter who can do a bit of self-buffing or healing, you choose seelah. If you want to become invincible, take both. The question you're asking is very apples and oranges. They fill vastly different roles in the party. Don't get me wrong, you could turn seelah into a more casting/healing focused character by giving her the abundant casting mythic, but that's not going to do anything in terms of her access to higher-leveled spells. To be clear, in my current run, Seelah is level 12, and has barely cracked into level 3 spells. Meanwhile, my dedicated casters are anywhere between level 6 and 8.

[Steffan]

Originally posted by Invisible:

I personally don't like sosil as character, but he is the strongest cleric in the game. If you want level 3 delay posion communal (against stinking clouds) as fast as possible choose him. Paladin can max have spell level 6 and this takes a loooong time. Sosil gives you a pletora of buffs right out of the box. He can heal your entiere party in one turn after you catch a fireball wiht positiv channeling. Give him a phylactery of positiv channeling and extra channeling, you have the best healer with you.

Apologies but Daeran is the best healer. ;) He also has the life domain. It takes 3 mythic feats for Sosiel to be able to reach a comparable number of spells.

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Ember, Woljif and Lann are never an optimal choice in any party.

Lann can get a true strike ability that can hit in situations where you absolutely need to hit. Plus you can get a belt for monks that reduce the AC of the creatures. He also gets a lot of attacks and he also works fine for bless weapon + fishing for crits vs evil creatures.

Woljif is the best troll there and he is very entertaining. He also has access to true strike and can deal tremendous amount of damage if he flanks. His spells give him a solid defense.

And Ember... well, she has saved my life more than once. She gets useful hexes and she can be a master of the fire element (get that feat that allows her fire attacks to ignore resistance, though). There is also a pricy ring of the salamander that greatly enhances he abilities. She absolutely replaced Camellia.

P.S. I would swap Nenio or Ember for Sosiel or Daeran if I were you.

[Ichthyic]

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Originally posted by art_loots:

just started a new campaign with a halfling cavalier order of the paw build. want good aligned or neutral companions in my party for this. but now i just entered act 2 and i was wondering, why would you ever use Sosiel over Seelah when seelah does everything sosiel can do but beter.

party btw or those interested:
Main party member
Seelah
Ember
Woljif
Nenio
Lann (the idiot) but guess have to roll with him to have a archer

Cleric and Paladin abilities support each other very well.

Mark of Justice stacks with Guarded Hearth and Visions of Madness. Mark of Justice scales off Charisma and Touch of Glory buffs Charisma.

Ember, Woljif and Lann are never an optimal choice in any party.

people who knock ember have no clue how to build her properly. there's that ignorance of yours again. you are SO tiresome. can't you just dial it back a bit?

[Ichthyic]

Originally posted by Freak4Leeks:

because sosiel is hot and less annoying. I didn't mind her until i had interactions with curl. I made sure to throw her out of my party as soon as possible, Camellia as well for insulting Ember KEK

yeah, they did a great job of building cam as literally chaotic evil (spoiler!). probably the best job of building an actual party member as CE that I have seen in a long time. I had no regrets putting her down like the mad dog she is. poor thing.

[Ichthyic]

Originally posted by Invisible:

I personally don't like sosil as character, but he is the strongest cleric in the game. If you want level 3 delay posion communal (against stinking clouds) as fast as possible choose him. Paladin can max have spell level 6 and this takes a loooong time. Sosil gives you a pletora of buffs right out of the box. He can heal your entiere party in one turn after you catch a fireball wiht positiv channeling. Give him a phylactery of positiv channeling and extra channeling, you have the best healer with you.

luck domain also gives him abilities that can literally turn a fight around, let alone the domain with the grounded hearth ability.

[art_loots]

Originally posted by steffan8:

Originally posted by Invisible:

I personally don't like sosil as character, but he is the strongest cleric in the game. If you want level 3 delay posion communal (against stinking clouds) as fast as possible choose him. Paladin can max have spell level 6 and this takes a loooong time. Sosil gives you a pletora of buffs right out of the box. He can heal your entiere party in one turn after you catch a fireball wiht positiv channeling. Give him a phylactery of positiv channeling and extra channeling, you have the best healer with you.

Apologies but Daeran is the best healer. ;) He also has the life domain. It takes 3 mythic feats for Sosiel to be able to reach a comparable number of spells.

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Ember, Woljif and Lann are never an optimal choice in any party.

Lann can get a true strike ability that can hit in situations where you absolutely need to hit. Plus you can get a belt for monks that reduce the AC of the creatures. He also gets a lot of attacks and he also works fine for bless weapon + fishing for crits vs evil creatures.

Woljif is the best troll there and he is very entertaining. He also has access to true strike and can deal tremendous amount of damage if he flanks. His spells give him a solid defense.

And Ember... well, she has saved my life more than once. She gets useful hexes and she can be a master of the fire element (get that feat that allows her fire attacks to ignore resistance, though). There is also a pricy ring of the salamander that greatly enhances he abilities. She absolutely replaced Camellia.

P.S. I would swap Nenio or Ember for Sosiel or Daeran if I were you.

for me it is less of what is optimal more for the roleplaying. i have finished the game on 2 paths already and i know what the characters can do. just think with sosiel being a frontliner which i don't really need with being a cavalier and having seelah. don't see the oint of having him. Daeran woud fit my party yes but i want good alligned characters for this run.
Not gong to bench my boy woljif cause i like him. (maybe ill give him haste and kick Nenio)
Ember can be replaced but i do think her hex+ cackle is really good in the first 2 acts. after that they kinda become useless and might replace her.
Not a fan of her but that early aces to haste makes me put up with her for a bit :P

[forrestomintero]

Ember is an absolute beast if you optimize her around fire damage evocations and give her the healing hexes for free healing that doesn't cost spell slots. She also starts with the slumber hex, which is incredibly powerful in the early game. Give her all the abundant casting mythics, and the fire penetration one. Since she gets most of the early-mid tier fire evocation spells for free, you can pick up a number of extra utility spells that a similar character wouldn't normally have the opportunity to get. There have been several fights where she was literally the only one able to do any meaningful damage due to enemies having insane dc, and the fact that I foolishly went into this game expecting my MC to be a debuff/control mage, not realizing how strong the enemies HD, save bonuses, and AC would be.

[BIG E.]

Well i can easily say clerics(or any class that has access to domains early) are absolutely broken because you can stack domains with mythic abilities. Correct domains alone can give your whole party +22 irreplacable Attack Bonuses that will stack with every other buff in the game pretty much.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by steffan8:

Lann can get a true strike ability that can hit in situations where you absolutely need to hit. Plus you can get a belt for monks that reduce the AC of the creatures. He also gets a lot of attacks and he also works fine for bless weapon + fishing for crits vs evil creatures.

Woljif is the best troll there and he is very entertaining. He also has access to true strike and can deal tremendous amount of damage if he flanks. His spells give him a solid defense.

And Ember... well, she has saved my life more than once. She gets useful hexes and she can be a master of the fire element (get that feat that allows her fire attacks to ignore resistance, though). There is also a pricy ring of the salamander that greatly enhances he abilities. She absolutely replaced Camellia.

P.S. I would swap Nenio or Ember for Sosiel or Daeran if I were you.

Lann is garbage and deals no damage while having no party wide buffs as his default class. If you want ranged damage, you build Wenduag as a dual wielding axe thrower. If you want party wide attack bonus buff with decent ranged damage, you take Arueshalae for instant enemy + ranger's bond which can grant a +5 party wide attack bonus that stacks with everything. Best you can do with Lann is turn him into a second Cleric which is redundant, because Sosiel exists.

Originally posted by Ichthyic:

Originally posted by MjKorz:

Cleric and Paladin abilities support each other very well.

Mark of Justice stacks with Guarded Hearth and Visions of Madness. Mark of Justice scales off Charisma and Touch of Glory buffs Charisma.

Ember, Woljif and Lann are never an optimal choice in any party.

people who knock ember have no clue how to build her properly. there's that ignorance of yours again. you are SO tiresome. can't you just dial it back a bit?

You have no clue what you're talking about. You have no clue how a good caster is built. When it comes to spellcasting, there is nothing that Ember can do that Nenio cannot do better. Nenio is the better ray caster. Nenio is the better DC caster. Nenio is the better ray + DC caster hybrid. Only value Ember can bring to the party is spamming Evil Eye and Protective Luck/Cackle, something that can be easily overshadowed in value by virtually any properly built companion aside from Lann.

[MjKorz]

Originally posted by forrestomintero:

Ember is an absolute beast if you optimize her around fire damage evocations and give her the healing hexes for free healing that doesn't cost spell slots. She also starts with the slumber hex, which is incredibly powerful in the early game. Give her all the abundant casting mythics, and the fire penetration one. Since she gets most of the early-mid tier fire evocation spells for free, you can pick up a number of extra utility spells that a similar character wouldn't normally have the opportunity to get. There have been several fights where she was literally the only one able to do any meaningful damage due to enemies having insane dc, and the fact that I foolishly went into this game expecting my MC to be a debuff/control mage, not realizing how strong the enemies HD, save bonuses, and AC would be.

Ember is a highly suboptimal offensive caster compared to Nenio, this is not even debatable.

First of all, when casting AoE damage spells that do not involve attack rolls, but allow a saving throw for half damage, Ember will have dramatically lower spell DC than appropriately built Nenio, simply because Nenio has more feats to work with. These spells also heavily benefit from bolster/empower/maximize/selective metamagics.

When casting direct damage ray spells such as hellfire, the real big boy damage is achieved through the combination of bolstering, empowering and maximizing the spell (as well as landing a critical, but you cannot guarantee that unless you're on the Trickster path).

Thus, both AoE and ray direct damage spells benefit heavily from metamagics.

Now, here is the important part: Ember is a spontaneous caster, Nenio is a prepared caster. This does not change even if you dip cross-blooded sorc with either character for triple draconic bloodline arcana (red+brass+gold) to get a +3damage/die bonus for fire spells.

Spontaneous casters are outright inferior to prepared casters when it comes to casting direct damage spells, because direct damage spells heavily benefit from metamagics and spontaneous casters need a full round to cast a spell modified by the previously mentioned metamagics while prepared casters need only a standard action just like with a regular spell. In real time, a standard action spell takes 3 seconds to cast, a full round action takes 6 seconds to cast. That's literally twice as long. Channeling a spell for 6 whole seconds in real time is extremely inconvenient and borderline crippling, because the actually tough fights are decided within the first couple of rounds. Even if you win initiative as a spontaneous caster, it still takes you a whole round to get your spell out which is insane(ly bad).


Slumber hex is also not powerful at all, because it is negated by a successful enemy save (unlike, for example, Evil Eye) and Witch hex DCs scale abysmally. Unless you play on low difficulties, you will never land that hex outside of the enemy rolling a natural 1 on their save.

So no, Ember is not a """beast""". She is a HIGHLY SUBOPTIMAL offensive caster, her only real role is spamming Evil Eye and Protective Luck/Cackle. That's all she's good for.

Also, you can build insanely powerful control/debuff arcane casters in WotR, you just need to know how. Heck, you can build Nenio into an unstoppable control goddess that breaks unfair difficulty in half, let alone a main character full arcane caster:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2801367246