Playing GESTALT in WoTR!

[VeritasWaits]

In gearing up for a second playthrough it occurred to me that Wrath is actually a perfect game to play with Gestalt rules (characters get two classes to level at the same time, for those not familiar with the term) because 1) you can actually do it very easily with the Toybox mod and 2) Core+ difficulty is already unbalanced in the way a GM probably should build a Gestalt campaign.

So I've been having fun planning out character builds for the party. I'm going to use the story companions, and I'm going to try to either keep their starting class as part of their gestalt mix or shift to one that feels thematically appropriate for the character. I'd love to hear what you'd do for a gestalt character in the game? Here's my party plan so far:

Main character: Eldritch Scion/Slayer>Eldritch Knight
I love playing a magus but in my first game I played an Angle oracle since that seemed to fit the story so well. This time I'll make an Azata eldritch scion with full BAB, Sneak Attack, and feats from Slayer that uses the Eldritch Knight captstone to swift action cast single target spells like rays and chain lightning for Zippy Magic to double up. Should be good fun

Seelah: Paladin/Shieldbearer Warpriest
Some extra divine casting and self buffs should make Seelah more useful and effective when she isn't smiting, and Shieldbearer fits her style perfectly. As an added little bonus the warpriest's sacred weapon will turn both her longsword and shield into greatsword equivalents making her a shield bashing monster. I also considered a Cavalier class to really go all in on mounted charging, but some of the mounted combat game mechanics annoy me and warpriest feels thematic for her.

Arueshalae: Demonslayer/Eldritch Archer
Demonslayer is a better archetype and makes sense for the lovely succubus, and eldritch archer adds magic, weapon buffs, and ranged spellstrike for some extra ranged punch. I considered going Zen Archer/Inquisitor since that's probably mechanically stronger but that felt like moving too far away from her character

Nenio: Wizard/Grenadier Alchemist
Nenio already feels like an alchemist with all her research and tinkering, and the alchemist side expands on her ability to support the party as well as giving her bombs to throw when she's not casting spells

Ember: Oracle/Kineticist
Switching Ember from Witch to Oracle lets her fill the divine caster role while still keeping her "in character" as she'll take Flame and Life mysteries. Kineticist builds on the fire theme. It probably isn't really needed since Flame oracle can already be a kick ass ray caster and I could just give her a full BAB class to make that better, but Kineticst is more fun. Note that I'll be going Fire>Water>Fire to avoid Deadly Earth shenanigans and give her Kinetic Healer wild talents plus better defences. Again, not optimal but more fun.

Woljif: Bard/Knife Master
I'd like a bard in the party and Woljif kind of feels like one already. Knife master will turn him into a nasty flanking duel wielder.

That's what I'm thinking, but I'd love to hear if you have any ideas either for different strong builds for these characters, or interesting builds for other characters that might convince me to swap them into the lineup instead.

[Gorwe]

I am not certain how stable Toybox Gestalt is. But yeah. That's but one of options that Toybox allows. Honestly? Without it, the game would be barely playable.

As for your choices:

Seelah: Fine
Aru: But Demonslayer don't fit. Espionage is basically an Owlcatbrew of her actual TT class. So, Expert / EA is a fine choice.
Nenio: Why not just go Arcane Bomber then?
Ember: Fine
Woljif: whatever ; Lann could fill that role as a Sensei / Hunter.

[fox5s]

Wojif's default class is already kind of two in one. You could just lean into it fully and make him a Rogue (knifemaster is an okay choice) / Wizard. I don't remember how Gestalt works with BAB so he may need some help there.

[seeker1]

So ever since I saw "Gestalt" in Toybox I wasn't sure it was "legit" (as in, something that existed in the TT PF rules).

It SEEMS interesting - I guess to me it seems like the way multi-classing originally worked in 2E as opposed to dual classing which used to be different things.

PF multi classing seems more like the way you used to "dual" in 2E - IOW, you take 2 levels in fighter, then take 4 levels in mage, and are now a 2 fighter/4 mage. Now without Legend "bending" things, this means at most you can be 10/10 or say 5/15 or whatever else.

But 2E multi classing involved you choosing your two classes at once at level 1, and you went up in both all at the same time, i.e. with enough XP you went from lvl 1 fighter/mage to lvl2 fighter/mage etc. etc. (This seems the way gestalt works in TT PF.) So once all is said and done, you can be lvl20 fighter/mage without being effective Legend/lvl40 with gestalt....

BTW, I believe BG2 still follows these earlier rules ... because while other races could multi-class (this is why Aerie is a cleric/mage) ... humans could only dual class. And the thing with the older dual classing is you couldn't use both classes until both reached the same level ... i.e. if you "dual classed" from 3rd level fighter to thief you weren't a "full" fighter/thief able to use both kinds of abilities until you were a 3d level thief.

[VeritasWaits]

Originally posted by seeker1:

So ever since I saw "Gestalt" in Toybox I wasn't sure it was "legit" (as in, something that existed in the TT PF rules).

Yeah Gestalt is very much a homebrew thing so it's not something that was ever printed in a Paizo book, but it's pretty well established. Some of my most fondly remembered tabletop games were gestalt. The power level is higher but it's also easier to realize a certain concept. You're essentially multiclassing, but both classes you pick get normal progression so you don't need to choose between them. So at character level 6 you'd be a level 6 class #1 and a level 6 class #2. You take the "best" version of everything, so the highest HP, BAB, saves, etc from whichever class offers them, and you get spellbooks, class mechanics, etc from both classes.

But action economy, base stats, and so on all work the same so you kind of need to think about how the classes synergize around that. A Sorcerer/Cleric sounds great but then you need high CHA and WIS for casting, and you can still only cast one spell per round so which one do you pick? Etc

[fox5s]

I've seen it in official books before as an optional variant. I don't remember if it was a Pathfinder book or DnD 3.5 but Paizo or WotC published it at some point.

[VeritasWaits]

Originally posted by fox5s:

I've seen it in official books before as an optional variant. I don't remember if it was a Pathfinder book or DnD 3.5 but Paizo or WotC published it at some point.

Oh that's interesting. I didn't know that it was ever officially published. It would make sense of it was a 3.5 book since that ruleset got pretty f-ing crazy by the end :)

[Kel'Ithra]

Gestalt does exist in the rules, it's just obscure and I think it's in the Unchained or another book I can't remember as an optional rule. I know I remember reading about it, me and a friend where actually trying to test it years ago but never got to it.

Also been using it on current playthrough. Be careful, it's very finiky, it doesn't like you changing your classes. And you have to make certain is active, otherwise you'll end up being double the level you are and the game gets rediculously hard early (Seems enemies scale).

I think if you want to take a Prestige class you have to take it as a third class, changing one of the classes. Since toybox locks your class's in to make it work forces you to level up again just to fix your class choice which completely breaks the game. So only try gestalt if your going 20/20