Thoughts on The Witch Patrons for WOTR

[New Willinium]

So this is something that I've been looking at the last few days and I've noticed that the Witch Spellbook is. . . probably my absolute favorite despite being so limited compared to the other Arcane casters in the game.

Witches have a lot of Arcane spells and whatever feels like it is *missing* are usually have their spaces filled via the Patron system.

The Patrons are basically the source of your Witch's powers and your choice can dramatically change exactly what purpose your Witch shall play in your gameplay.

Agility: Expeditious Retreat ,Cat's Grace, Haste, Freedom of Movement, Polymorph, Cat's Grace, Mass Polymorph, Greater Polymorph, Greater Polymorph, Greater

Ancestors: bless, aid, prayer, shield of dawn, burst of glory, greater heroism, Bestow Grace of Champion ,Angelic Aspect Greater ,weird

Deception: Vanish Invisibility Displacement Confusion Phantasmal Web Serenity Invisibility, Mass Angelic Aspect, Greater Weird

Devotion: Divine Favor Invisibility Magical Vestment Confusion Flame Strike Bull's Strength, Mass Bestow Grace of the Champion Holy Aura Heal, Mass

Elements: Shocking Grasp Acid Arrow Fireball Dragon's Breath Flame Strike Acid Fog Caustic Eruption Polar Ray Icy Prison, Mass

Endurance: Stunning Barrier Bear's Endurance Protection From Energy Thorn Body Spell Resistance Bear's Endurance, Mass Restoration, Greater Polar Ray Seamantle

Healing: Remove Fear Restoration, Lesser Remove Disease Restoration Cleanse Pillar of Life Restoration, Greater Cure Critical Wounds, Mass Heal, Mass

Insanity: Color Spray Hideous Laughter Hold Person Confusion Mind Fog Serenity Insanity Cure Critical Wounds, Mass Overwhelming Presence

Mercy: Shocking Grasp Eagle's Splendor Remove Curse Restoration Cleanse Inspiring Recovery Resurrection Euphoric Tranquility Heal, Mass

Shadow: Vanish Blur Displacement Shadow Conjuration Shadow Evocation Phantasmal Putrefaction Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, Greater Shades

Strength: Divine Favor Bull's Strength Heroism Divine Power Righteous Might Bull's Strength, Mass Legendary Proportions Frightful Aspect Heroic Invocation

Transformation: Longstrider Bear's Endurance Beast Shape I Beast Shape II Beast Shape III Dragonkind I Dragonkind II Dragonkind III Shapechange

Winter: Snowball Resist Fire Protection from Fire Ice Storm Icy Prison Cold Ice Strike Ice Body Polar Ray Polar Midnight

Now I find it genuinely rather hard to choose between all of these Patrons as they are all pretty great, honestly I'd be less torn if there was a Mythic "Gain a second Patron" feat like there is for Sorcerer Bloodlines and Oracle Curses and Shaman Spirits.

But of them all. . . I personally think that Deception is the most *useful* for certain builds, with Elements being the best for Blaster Witches (because Fireball AND Flamestrike), with Shadow perhaps being the most *versatile* though it does need a Mythic feat for it to fully withdraw it's main drawback.

But other then that you have some really interesting stuff here. At first I found Ancestors a bit odd because of it's final spell. . . but thinking on it I REALLY like it thematically.

Agility and Transformation are two that I . . . don't quite understand the appeal of atm. But then that's only because I've never really touched any kind of Polymorphing or Shapechanging classes. Thematically I suppose that they could fit with the Demon mythic class because that also has a lot of transformation spells.

Strength seems like a great choice for it you want to force a Off-Tank Melee Witch, buff before going into the fight, and hit from the backrow.

Mercy, Ancestors, Devotion and Healing feel like "Divine Caster Lite" and though are nice kind of feel redundant when we already have three supurb Full Divinely Casting Casters in the game. Though of the four I like Ancestors and Devotion the most.

Winter LOOKS great honestly but I've heard nothing but since release about how the Prestige Class it is built for has been broken

So ultimately it's always a coin coss between Deception, Elements, and Shadow for my characters. They feel like they have the most overall coverage for the Witch Spell List without feeling redundant by your companion NPCs.

What about the rest of y'all? What is your favorite Witch Patron and do you have thoughts in general on the rest?

[Schlumpsha]

My greatest beef is the lack of necromantic Witch Patrons. Like, there is literally not a -single one- present in WotR. Whereas PnP has dozen of them: Autumn, Death, Jynx, Rot, even Entropy has some. And I find this mind boggling.

Out of the existing ones my favourites are probably Insanity and Winter. But I still have no idea why the heck Owlcat gave Winter spells to protect against FIRE. Seriously, those spells should have been protection against cold. And nothing else but cold.

[Gorwe]

My favorite has to be Winter. But I don't really like Witch Spellbook. Try an Unlettered Arcanist and tell me what you think. You basically trade Patron + Hexes for Exploits. So that puts all of emphasis on the Witch Spellbook.

Regardless, care to explain what exactly you like about Witch Spellbook? Also, it'd seem(from a cursory glance at CoTW mod for Kingmaker) that it is unfinished.

Patrons? Beautiful idea, but the spell selection is often ... not ideal tbh. Like, I get what they were going for, but it mostly seems meh.

[Selvokaz]

The problem with Witch is its weak *** hexes, seriously, go look at the official Witch Hex guide for Pathfinder TT, and see just how much of it was left out of the WOTR It will shock you. As far as favorite, I'd say Transformation but a Witch has crap HP and BAB so while I'd love to use those spells they are pointless in a video game where your options for how to use such spells are limited.

[New Willinium]

Originally posted by Gorwe:

My favorite has to be Winter. But I don't really like Witch Spellbook. Try an Unlettered Arcanist and tell me what you think. You basically trade Patron + Hexes for Exploits. So that puts all of emphasis on the Witch Spellbook.

Regardless, care to explain what exactly you like about Witch Spellbook? Also, it'd seem(from a cursory glance at CoTW mod for Kingmaker) that it is unfinished.

Patrons? Beautiful idea, but the spell selection is often ... not ideal tbh. Like, I get what they were going for, but it mostly seems meh.

This is going to sound odd but I *like* how limited it feels, and how it seems like an odd mix of Mostly Arcane, some divine spells.

And most importantly, most of the spells feel like they *thematically* and *aesthetically* fit their concept if that makes sense. It's very Witchy.

Are there a few things I wish were natively in there? Absolutely. Things like Fireball, or Weird, or Destruction, would be fantastic, and thankfully the Patrons mostly cover that.

I've found that the Leyline Guardian Witch feels the most powerful of the bunch, it being a Spontenaous Caster with a ability (Conduit Surge) that allows you to up your caster level for free at level one. Making your Level 1 Snowball possibly do 4d6 damage.

[New Willinium]

Originally posted by Selvokaz:

The problem with Witch is its weak *** hexes, seriously, go look at the official Witch Hex guide for Pathfinder TT, and see just how much of it was left out of the WOTR It will shock you. As far as favorite, I'd say Transformation but a Witch has crap HP and BAB so while I'd love to use those spells they are pointless in a video game where your options for how to use such spells are limited.

You're not wrong, but I do still appreciate. . .at least some of what we have. Iceplant is useful (plus it has a ring to double it's AC bonus), Evil Eye is a classic and seems to scale with your Witch levels, Slumber is useful if you hit something that actually *can* be put to sleep, and some of the other hexes seem generally useful like Fortune, Misfortune, and Protective Hex.

That said I did find most of the Major and Grand Hexes to be rather underwhelming. And I'm not sure what they have on the tabletop that would be better compared to Evil Eye in general.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by New Willinium:

honestly I'd be less torn if there was a Mythic "Gain a second Patron" feat like there is for Sorcerer Bloodlines and Oracle Curses and Shaman Spirits.

Tabletop Tweaks added that. Just another reason in a long list of reasons to recommend the mod, lol. (And just as an fyi you don't have to use any Tabletop Tweaks tweak or change that you don't want to, you can turn any/all on or off, so you're not stuck with unwanted changes.)

Anyway, I like Elements the best, partly because Fireball is uniquely abuse-able since it has a travel time. But obviously Agility is great if you don't otherwise have someone to Haste the group.

[Schlumpsha]

Dark Codex also has that. Plus other goodies for the Witch class. Such as Limitless Hexes, Swift Hexes and introducing the Ice Tomb hex to WotR. I found a combination of both mods to be my ideal. Although I am still waiting for some modder to add more Witch Patrons into the game.

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by Schlumpsha:

Dark Codex also has that. Plus other goodies for the Witch class. Such as Limitless Hexes, Swift Hexes and introducing the Ice Tomb hex to WotR. I found a combination of both mods to be my ideal. Although I am still waiting for some modder to add more Witch Patrons into the game.

Yeah, DarkDex is very nice, especially for Witches, Shamans and Kineticists.

Originally posted by New Willinium:

Originally posted by Gorwe:

My favorite has to be Winter. But I don't really like Witch Spellbook. Try an Unlettered Arcanist and tell me what you think. You basically trade Patron + Hexes for Exploits. So that puts all of emphasis on the Witch Spellbook.

Regardless, care to explain what exactly you like about Witch Spellbook? Also, it'd seem(from a cursory glance at CoTW mod for Kingmaker) that it is unfinished.

Patrons? Beautiful idea, but the spell selection is often ... not ideal tbh. Like, I get what they were going for, but it mostly seems meh.

This is going to sound odd but I *like* how limited it feels, and how it seems like an odd mix of Mostly Arcane, some divine spells.

And most importantly, most of the spells feel like they *thematically* and *aesthetically* fit their concept if that makes sense. It's very Witchy.

Are there a few things I wish were natively in there? Absolutely. Things like Fireball, or Weird, or Destruction, would be fantastic, and thankfully the Patrons mostly cover that.

I've found that the Leyline Guardian Witch feels the most powerful of the bunch, it being a Spontenaous Caster with a ability (Conduit Surge) that allows you to up your caster level for free at level one. Making your Level 1 Snowball possibly do 4d6 damage.

I hear you. It's just sad reality that Owlcatfinder kinda(or directly) punishes that with its stupid, needless stat bloat. And, yes, LLG is a fantastic class, one of the best casters, probably my favorite(LLG -> WW with Elements + Winter ... omg!).