Through the Ashes DLC

[MMJ]

Hello everyone.

So ... I started the new DLC, and ... oh, boy. I think Owlcat hates us, big time. (For the record, I play on core, and already managed to finish the base game in this difficulty. I have yet to play Inevitable excess, though).

I understand that the point of this DLC is :

-to show us how hard it is to survive a demonic invasion for "normal" people (as normal as a Pathfinder character can be, anyway)
-to try to be stealthy and to avoid as much combat as you can.

On the paper, the idea seem nice. But in reality, well ... I'm not really far into the DLC, but I have already seen a lot of problematic things.

-Crappy gear : yeah, you're level 1 and it suck big time ... but the gear you got manage to be even worst than you are : mock weapon who gave you a -2 to attack, no armor at all, ... In itself it wouldn't be a problem if there wasn't what follows next.

- I suffered through non-avoidable combats way too overtuned for a level 1 group ("Hey, you just survived a CR4 monster who was immune to slashing/piercing weapon, with a nauseating aura, and all of this with a level 1 team ? Good job ! You saved ? Good ! Here, have another combat against another CR4 monster, right now ! No needs to thank us !")

Not to mention that a ton of ennemies can (and will, since you're never gonna roll more than 4 on the D20) poison/disease you. And a poisonned/diseased character at level 1 hurt a lot. Especially now, since you have to fiund first aid kits to use the "treat affliction" action.

-Finally, there are some monsters that are clearly way too strong to be attacked by your level 1 nobodys (like CR6 and up, around +8 to attack against your unarmored characters, 15 to 20 damages per hit, AC around 20 ...).

"So, just sneak around them !". Oh, I wish i could. But since they got around +15 to Perception, they see me about 95 % of the time.

So, yeah, i'm probably being salty there, but I really wish that Owlcat was more focused on telling a story rather than designing ennemies who can one shot you at every encounter.

[Ghost]

this Developer makes 90% great design decisions and 10% "wtf?" decisions

Tavern DLC concept is in the 10%

I wish them all success in the future, wrath is currently my #1 crpg

[Frostfeather]

I will henceforth refer to this DLC as "Through the Asses" by Owltrash.

[Player#2201]

Would be cool if those spells tailored to this sort of survival, like remove sickness, actually applied their bonus. Useless in main game and dlc

[Lord Honorius]

Made a monster tactitian, with 2 sohei, 1 oracle nature all on horse. I summon and attack with crappy weapon and the crappy rogue and the merc squash everything. Im at noble district. On core diff and its prety easy so far.

[jonoliveira12]

I already finihed it, it is very small.
Was a nice DLC, however, and shows a decent, but not overwhelming, degree of difficulty.

It is definitely more down to earth, lacking all the impressive epic fights, but does carry forth the message that normies would just be screwed in a Daemon invasion.

[seeker1]

Tokala původně napsal:

And this stupid First Aid Kit seems to be in the main game now too - at least to pick up and for sale.

Thanks for this, as I've been wondering.

So, it seems like even in the Main Campaign, you now need First Aid Kits to use Treat Affliction, thus making it dependent on a limited resource.

I wasn't sure if it was just a DLC thing.

[mrbot]

So far Owlcat is batting .000 (0 for 2) in the DLC game. Why waste their time and ours with this tripe? It's mind-boggling. DLCs that add real value to the main campaign and main character--huge side quests, raising max level, finding powerful equipment, defeating cool and tough new bosses--that's the good stuff. Think "Throne of Bhaal" from BG2.

[MMJ]

mrbot původně napsal:

... raising max level, finding powerful equipment, defeating cool and tough new bosses--that's the good stuff. Think "Throne of Bhaal" from BG2.

Well, since level 20 is the max level you can reach in tabletop Pathfinder, i don't think there's going to be a max level increase ever ...

And fight new bosses ? We can already defeat a whole bunch of demon lords in the base game (Deskari, Baphomet, that faceless sphinx, ...). I fail to see what could be more epic than laying down demon lords ... I know there is a lot of them, but i fail to see the point of fighting them all, given that only Deskari and Baphomet ever thought that it would be a grand idea to invade the material plane. The other demon lords are well content to be inside the abyss, and are happy to stay in their domains (they already have a ton of "work" to do with theyr little Qlippoth problem, not to mention the regular clash with good aligned outsiders).

[seeker1]

Well, just to point out, there are "unofficial" rules for up to lvl 40 characters (which of course have to multi as the rules for each CLASS do stop at 20 ... )

This is exactly what the game does for MCs who go Legend and then become lvl 40 characters. (Say a 20 fighter/20 thief, or ... whatever.)

The real trick for continuing any campaign past the endings/epilogues is the finality of them. Your MC could be dead, out of existence, out in the outer planes, or ascended to demigodhood ... I'm really not expecting that.

That said, I don't see why they can't just put a bit of extra adventure into, say, Act 5. (Pretty much like the Act 4 procedural dungeon is being mcguffined into the Abyss in DLC 3.) Something an MC can do *before* setting out for Iz/Threshold/IP. There is unexplored space on the world map. Or just extend it in one or more NSEW directions. And what do you know, there was always a dungeon there, it's just ... oh pick your mcguffin ... in the DLC, the mists have moved away from it and now it's visible whereas it wasn't before. They could do it without raising the lvl cap past 20. Or ... maybe just raise it to 25 for everybody in the party ... you can still balance that.

[jedi7000nathan/sevenbillionjedi]

jonoliveira12 původně napsal:

I already finihed it, it is very small.
Was a nice DLC, however, and shows a decent, but not overwhelming, degree of difficulty.

It is definitely more down to earth, lacking all the impressive epic fights, but does carry forth the message that normies would just be screwed in a Daemon invasion.

Though to be fair that is more or less the case how would you react if suddenly thousands upon thousands of demons poured out of the Abyss upon your city, lets be honest those that couldn't fight or process what was going on would be killed VERY quickly.

[Pipmalice / 悪気ピップ]

The crappy gear and the diseases are by design. To give the feeling of needing to fight for survival. And you're supposed to have to pick from saving this guys life or curing your own diseases and the like.

As for the Cr4 enemies. What you're mistaken for is 4 hit dice (Gelatinous Cube are cr 3 monster but have 4 hit dice (4d8) and the 4 in their level stands for the hitdice. For 5-6 level 2 characters that is about average.

But i personally feel due to the large amount of enemies you face with piercing reduction and immunity you get highly punished for playing any martial ranged unit. I love playing in turn based mode and ended up having to press pass for half my units for 10+ turns while they run away from the monster chasing them. As the monster runs away from my guy with a torch that deals 1 fire damage per hit on a low chance to hit. (i play on higher difficulty) or with the cubes running into the same issue where but also having to lose 3 turns with your melee unit cause they threw badly on 1 saving throw.

So while i can understand the scaveging aspect of this campaign i just feel punished at every turn by non threatning combat that drags on forever due to making most my units do 0 damage due to me picking more than 1 ranged non spellcaster unit

[fox5s]

I'm actually a bit annoyed at the Gelatinous Cubes. But only because they aren't Gelatinous Cubes.

Gelatinous Cubes are an Ooze with a terrible move speed that are stealthy (clear and quiet). They will swallow you whole and you'll have a bad day if you walk into them. But otherwise, they move slow so you back off and unload arrows into them until they die.

These ones that the are calling Gelatinous Cubes are Aberations for whatever reason, are not stealthy at all, and are immune to piercing and slashing. There are other Oozes that they could represent, but they are NOT the humble Gelatinous Cube.

I did like the Door Ooze.

[Schlumpsha]

fox5s původně napsal:

I'm actually a bit annoyed at the Gelatinous Cubes. But only because they aren't Gelatinous Cubes.

Agreed. Back at the main campaign I did give Owlcat some slack because carnivorous crystals were the only oozes and probably didn't warrant their own monster type. But now? Having mimic oozes, gelatinous cubes, gelatinous monuments and carnivorous crystals available in WotR? I'd say it's high time to get things straight. And give rangers their Favored Enemy (Oozes) while we're at it.

But the cube's stat sheets are really odd: why do mindless blobs have Dexterity 10, Intelligence 10, Charisma 10 and Wisdom 10? That should be Dex 1, Int --, Wis 1 and Cha 1 by all accounts.

[Tokala]

I have a problem with the level cap as well - it should be higher.
3rd playthrough now and I always reach the level cap way before the finale - not very satisfying afterwards.
Level 20 now and I even did not went into the Ivory Sanctum, Enigma yet.
I also skipped many optional bosses fights.
Enigma is too late anyway ( rather annoying anyway that Nenio`s quest is drawn out in such a length - not to mention the puzzles).
No use for the money anymore you get out of all the stuff you pick up there and the special equipment would have been better earlier as well.

[fox5s]

But... after reaching lvl 20... aren't you literally basking in your own awesomeness at that point? There are still gonna be challenges left and it's kind of awesome facing them at max power.

Now that I think about it more, part of the reason for Solo runs is to get to lvl 20 ASAP so that you can deal with the rest of the game challenges more easily. Plus, then you can turn exp sharing back on and have your cake and eat it too.